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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:51 pm 
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a reply from another post where Jmac said something similar

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And people saying comments that a coach said "you will never play here" better back it up with 100% proof that something like that was said and you better have 100% information of all the circumstances that came about for a coach to say something like that...

, I know a former coach, make that 2 former coaches that we had that told kids "you will never play" not just head coaches but assistants - but I Understood the CONTEXT in which the words were said in most cases.... matter of fact the year before I beagn to play alot (split time w a rotation at guard) - the head coach told me in front of the team I was useless and would never play and I yelled back that "its cool, you will be fired after this season anyway" - TRUE STORY - The upcoming year I was in the best shape of my life and was #2 at both Tackle spots and battling for starting G. I ended up suffering through an ankle injury after the 4th play of my 1st start on ESPN but finished the game and missed the next 3-4. We went 3-9 that season and then to Hawaii the next. I DID play and proved useful and he didnt get fired but rather we went bowling the next year....
And that just isnt from the CS era, you dont think TB's staff had guys going after players, breaking them down to nothing...its apart of College football - always has been, always will - now more than ever with the pre$$ure to WIN

Whats the point - There are so many things said within the famework of a team that you could not imagine. You wanna know what the top level of words that can be said then read the kansas coach story - yes - to the very extreme things like that can be said - and not just from a coach to a player but from a player to a coach - even the weightroom/conditioning coaches get involved in all that chatter...
Sometimes kids or coaches have to figure what makes them tic and get the most out of each other - sometimes it works and sometimes people shut down.... its part of the game. You cant have coaches that play barbie house with the players but then you cant have someone that may have gone as far as Mangino went. There is a fine line there and it gets crossed ALL THE TIME everywhere.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:13 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:

And a few breaks here and there FLA and BAMA and TCU and BOSIE and CINCY might not be undefeated - woulda coulda shoulda games are not Reality, we didnt go 0-12 or 1-11

But we did go 3-9; 2-9 against our level of competition with numerous blowouts and we were shut-out twice.
The same thing happened last year. Those are horrendous won/loss records for our University.
That needs to be faced, and properly addressed.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:19 pm 
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GSx wrote:
bigmoneytx wrote:

And a few breaks here and there FLA and BAMA and TCU and BOSIE and CINCY might not be undefeated - woulda coulda shoulda games are not Reality, we didnt go 0-12 or 1-11

But we did go 3-9; 2-9 against our level of competition with numerous blowouts and we were shut-out twice.
The same thing happened last year. Those are horrendous won/loss records for our University.
That needs to be faced, and properly addressed.


YEs, but we didnt go 0-12 or 1-11 as suggested by the mythical ball bouncing the other way

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:29 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:

YEs, but we didnt go 0-12 or 1-11 as suggested by the mythical ball bouncing the other way

0 wins, 1 win, 2 win, 3 win, 4 winss - take your pick - all would be woeful win totals.
We had 2 razor close games, and won them. Those were our only 1A wins. We had 2 other close/competitive games, and lost them. The other 8 games consisted of 1 1AA win and 7 blowout losses. That's all relevant data.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:38 pm 
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GSx wrote:
bigmoneytx wrote:

YEs, but we didnt go 0-12 or 1-11 as suggested by the mythical ball bouncing the other way

0 wins, 1 win, 2 win, 3 win, 4 winss - take your pick - all would be woeful win totals.
We had 2 razor close games, and won them. Those were our only 1A wins. We had 2 other close/competitive games, and lost them. The other 8 games consisted of 1 1AA win and 7 blowout losses. That's all relevant data.


well i guess you better strip Florida and Bama of their title chances since beating 1AA doesnt count with wins over chatanoooga and charleston southern :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:40 pm 
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GSX,

You are barking up the wrong tree. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Johnny Mac wrote:
1. if a change is not made and a vote of confidence is given, we will have 7500 people at the home opener next season

2. we don't have a depth problem, we have a problem with a coach who predetermines whether a player is going to play or not... tells those players they will never play, and rips their hearts out, thus giving them zero desire to "do what it takes" to get on the field, ie special teams play

3. I honestly can't see anyone defending this past season... there was NOTHING that showed progress from having three recruiting classes for the current staff, other than some inspired play by the QB after a change was made. We barely beat a good 1AA team and stole victories from Army and UTEP... hardly two tough teams... lost to an awful Rice team, got embarrassed by BYU, Tulsa and Houston in the second halves of each game, showing the lack of adjustments by the coaching staff. Special teams were WORSE than last year... how the @$%# that could have been possible is beyond me, but it was accomplished.

Added on edit: looking at what I wrote, we were a few breaks from being 1-11 and possibly 0-12.



I asked that the season's review and coaching grades be held off until Monday morning/the end of the holiday weekend. Some of us have multiple blessings to be thankful for and little time to enjoy these blessings. It's a minor request not a demand. Perhaps another 24 hours will allow each of us to post more cognizant thoughts one way or the other.

Thanks,

Jim


Nice following of directions/instructions there Pops! You will be omnipotent ruler of Daddy universe with those skills putting together the "easy bake ovens" and "The Malibu Barbie mansion" on Christmas eve

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“Cause Santa’s elves are morons Punkin!”

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Actually thanks to everyone!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:00 pm 
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I hate that we lost the way we did in some games, but I hate even more when people try and take credit away from what was accomplished.

If we are going to rip apart the program to state the facts of the negative (which everyone seems to be very happy and eager to do without a second thought :idea: )

at least give the credit for what was rather then trying to diminish an already struggling group of people who fought their arses off and worked their arses off no matter what anyone here thinks and no matter the outcome -

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:08 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:

well i guess you better strip Florida and Bama of their title chances since beating 1AA doesnt count with wins over chatanoooga and charleston southern :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

No one said to turn them into losses. But those wins didn't add to Florida or Bama's position in the least.
If you need 1AA wins to make your case, your case is weak.
All I'm saying is that we (the University) needs an honest and thorough look at this thing. No sleepy platitudes, generalities, and low-bar goals.
Specifics, plans and directions are in order.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:10 pm 
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GSx wrote:
.
If you need 1AA wins to make your case, your case is weak.
All I'm saying is that we (the University) needs an honest and thorough look at this thing. No sleepy platitudes, generalities, and low-bar goals.
Specifics, plans and directions are in order.


YES

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:29 pm 
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There are valid reasons for and against a change at the top. I know that Toledo is trying his his best to get there. The program seems to be more warmer. more efficient, and has a clearer purpose under Toledo. However I am most disappointed with the offensive output, this year specifically. Toledo d@mn near guaranteed an exciting offense that put up points. Three years into his scheme the offense should be at the point were they put 20 at least on every CUSA opponent. This year the Offense put up 13,10,16,6,45,0, and 21 in conference. I want to see a change in the offense period. I think 3 years is not very much time, but then gain the half decade we spent on the good program/bad game day Teevens is not desired.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:04 am 
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waverider wrote: I blame the AD and the administration. To begin, the AD saved our athletic program. Most ADs would have left after he has already saved our program twice. Most ADs would have left for job offers to UVA and SMU, but RD came to TU to truly make a mark. Most ADs would have left with the lack of encouragement from Gibson Hall. I will give Gibson Hall a temporary break. Listen the administration has been dealt with the most unusual blow ever experienced to a university. TU had to immediately get loans and then start to pay loans to literally rebuilt a lot of our campus after a devastating hurricane. Insurance company have tried to renege on their policies and obligations. Insurance and federal money is still flowing in from the loss. Meanwhile TU has ramped its scholarships outlays to attract top students to ensure its academic standing. I fully understand the situation. Money has not been sitting on the sidelines, if you can excuse the pun. But it is time to turn a new page.

The administration needs to fully understand collegiate sports are a primary marketing tool and TU can no longer leave its program on auto-pilot with it mandated minimum yearly inbalance. A true commitment needs to be expressed. When our three private school rivals with the Western Division (Tulsa, SMU and Rice) have each demonstrated a true commitment to improve their athletic programs thru facilities, coaches, and budgeting, it is no longer a wonder why we are placing fourth in our overall athletic program, particularly FB. I sincerely hope everyone will respectfully make a plea to SC asking for athletics to have its necessary share to compete. RD will get it done, and strangely enough I believe BT can get it done, but to think TU has to bus our FB kids to Rice to save $$...RD is working overtime to keep the Green Wave competitive.

Please SC.... let the newly realized money from the lsu buyout, the new FB series serve to allow RD to generate new shovels in the ground, with new tutors, and new incentives to improved our beloved Green Wave program!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:32 am 
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Jeff Bower would be a great hire. But I don't expect any changes this year.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:52 am 
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Jeff Bower would be a terrible hire. He was a beaten, exhausted man by the time USM fired him. Any plugged-in USM fan will tell you that he had stopped recruiting. It's been two offseasons, going into a third, and no one has shown USM up by hiring this "great" coach. By next offseason I expect Tulane to be back in the market. I also expect Bower to be on the market. If he is, and he will be, that should tell you that he's not what we're looking for (to say nothing of the fact that by 2011, he'd be just about as old as Toledo was when we hired him).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Pelican Power wrote:
Please SC.... let the newly realized money from the lsu buyout, the new FB series serve to allow RD to generate new shovels in the ground, with new tutors, and new incentives to improved our beloved Green Wave program!

We also sold home games to Alabama and mighty Rutgers; the latter was said to be a record amount for a road game (when justifying a 1/2 with the Rutgers). That would provide some funds for some football improvements. And I trust those funds are being put directly into football.
But what we really need is some major capital infusion into facilities.
As for the coaching, well, we've been undercoached signficantly.
And the administration needs to at least stop its obstructionism: Cowen and his "use problems" need to cease.
We've got to address at least some of these issues and NOW.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:17 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:52 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:
I hate that we lost the way we did in some games, but I hate even more when people try and take credit away from what was accomplished.....

I'm curious, BMT... what WAS accomplished?

bigmoneytx wrote:
...at least give the credit for what was rather then trying to diminish an already struggling group of people who fought their arses off and worked their arses off no matter what anyone here thinks and no matter the outcome -
No, seriously, I'm not being negative, I really want to know what your opinion is about what good things were accomplished this year that would give hope for next year. Since you have become the self-appointed defender of all-things-good about Tulane football, please tell us all what you view as the "good" of 2009 that bodes better for 2010. In other words, AA and JW both getting 1000 yards doesn't count since they'll both be gone.

If what you are saying is that we should simply give credit because they worked hard... that everyone who played gave 100% and "left it all on the field"... then we have a problem. Because looking at our 3-9 results, that means that we either don't have talent or we don't have coaching. If the effort was there, then something else was missing, right? If all the players gave 100%, if there was nothing more they could have done effort-wise, and we consistently were blown out by schools that we should be better than, or at least equal to, then we are either deficient in talent or we are deficient in coaching. Period.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:35 pm 
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PeteRasche wrote:
Since you have become the self-appointed defender of all-things-good about Tulane football
.


Thank you for the compliment, but it should read this since I am unwavering in support of Tulane.

Quote:
Since you have become the self-appointed defender of all-things-good about Tulane Athletics



I dont let adversity scare me into throwing a white flag, talk sh^t about programs, coaches or players and other staff members at Tulane who I know nothing about. I dont pretend that I know what it is like to have someone else's job and that I can do it better and I dont pretend that I know everything about what they do or can do on a daily basis.

I am proud that I support my school 100% and when I feel that there may be some things I dont understand or agree with that I contact the people that matter about the situation rather than attack those people without facts or any thought based in reality. I dont mind taking shots for being "the self-appointed" defender of a program/department that I believe in no matter who is or will be at the controls.

My Tulane card says PERMANENT just a like few others on here - We will be standing tall and holding on firmly Bleeding Green through the lowest lows and the highest highs... not someone who has an All-Access pass so they can jump on and off as a convenience as they see fit.

Some people sit and wait for every and any moment to strike at an opportunity to tear down, rip apart or sabotage what others are trying hard to build - any they take pride in that as it is who they have become over time...

Sorry but that isnt me or how I want to spend my time with Tulane.
I would rather use the energy to "ask what I can do" and help the program/department
because there are enough enemies out there taking care of the other stuff - no need to tear down from within.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:57 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
Since you have become the self-appointed defender of all-things-good about Tulane football
.


Thank you for the compliment, but it should read this since I am unwavering in support of Tulane.

Quote:
Since you have become the self-appointed defender of all-things-good about Tulane Athletics



I dont let adversity scare me into throwing a white flag, talk sh^t about programs, coaches or players and other staff members at Tulane who I know nothing about. I dont pretend that I know what it is like to have someone else's job and that I can do it better and I dont pretend that I know everything about what they do or can do on a daily basis.

I am proud that I support my school 100% and when I feel that there may be some things I dont understand or agree with that I contact the people that matter about the situation rather than attack those people without facts or any thought based in reality. I dont mind taking shots for being "the self-appointed" defender of a program/department that I believe in no matter who is or will be at the controls.

My Tulane card says PERMANENT just a like few others on here - We will be standing tall and holding on firmly Bleeding Green through the lowest lows and the highest highs... not someone who has an All-Access pass so they can jump on and off as a convenience as they see fit.

Some people sit and wait for every and any moment to strike at an opportunity to tear down, rip apart or sabotage what others are trying hard to build - any they take pride in that as it is who they have become over time...

Sorry but that isnt me or how I want to spend my time with Tulane.
I would rather use the energy to "ask what I can do" and help the program/department
because there are enough enemies out there taking care of the other stuff - no need to tear down from within.

ROLL WAVE

If this offends you than dont be mad at me, look in the mirror. If it doesnt offend you then good, You are a PERMANENT GREENIE down to your soul


Allow me to poke fun at myself - but I meant what I said

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:02 pm 
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I think Pete asked a valid question.

What is your opinion is about what good things were accomplished this year that would give hope for next year.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:10 pm 
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Pepper wrote:
I think Pete asked a valid question.

What is your opinion is about what good things were accomplished this year that would give hope for next year.


Its all relative to the individual person, it is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I have learned it doesnt matter what I or anyone else feels is good or bad - we all see things differently based on who we are what we know or think we know.

So what I feel is an accoplishment wont be the same to others because I see things WAY different than most everyone else, that is obvious.

:wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:18 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:
Pepper wrote:
I think Pete asked a valid question.

What is your opinion is about what good things were accomplished this year that would give hope for next year.


Its all relative to the individual person, it is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I have learned it doesnt matter what I or anyone else feels is good or bad - we all see things differently based on who we are what we know or think we know.

So what I feel is an accoplishment wont be the same to others because I see things WAY different than most everyone else, that is obvious.

:wink:


I think Pepper asked a good question. I didn't notice an answer.

Your last statement is true, especially as it applies to the recent football season. I can't think of any accomplishments. The best I can do is say that I'm glad we beat Army on the road the way we did, the UTEP game was exciting, and that's really it. On the individual level, I'm glad Andre got his 1,000 yards. He deserved that and far more than that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:45 pm 
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All he is saying is that we won 3 games, not 1, and playing the "what if" game, suggesting 2 wins don't really count, is bogus. Is that really so hard to understand?

And speaking of how I cannot understand how so many on here fail to grasp a basic cause and effect which is the primary reason for our failures this year, is it really so hard to grasp the concept that if our previous coach's recruiting results in his last 3 years were abysmal, that the results when those three classes are in their 3rd, 4th and 5th year on campus would also be abysmal?

Toledo and staff are responsible for the last 2 classes plus whatever they managed to accomplish in the 3 weeks after they were hired (Andrew Nierman, for one). I'm sure in the rush to the guillotine many on here would say I'm giving him a pass on his first class, but I'm comfortable arguing that the failure to effectively recruit in the 49 weeks preceding those 3 weeks had much more to do with it.

Fixing the problem requires talent. It appears this staff is doing a good job assembling that talent. Unfortunately, the fruits of their labor are still in its 1st and 2nd years on campus. The coaches won't say it, publicly or privately, but, in my opinion, we had 15 guys in the 3rd, 4th and 5th years on campus this year who could meaningfully contribute at a good CUSA school. Those good schools, of course, have about 40 guys of that caliber within those class years (and the rest are 1st and 2nd year guys). I'm not going to name names, because a lot of the guys who I don't think make the grade really gave all they had for Tulane and it is unfair to them. If you've watched closely, and approached it with an open mind, you could probably reach similar conclusions.

Another thing I observed this year was that there were too many older guys to whom winning football games for Tulane University was not enough of a priority. Again, I'm not going to name names, as I have no tangible proof to back my thoughts on this. The young guys seem to buy into what the staff and Toledo are preaching, and that's a good thing. There are always exceptions going both ways, as is the case in all human affairs.

I think we have a staff of individuals who have won in the past, and know how to do it. They are dedicated to teaching these kids. They seem to have plausible ideas for improving the program. Some of these plans have been implemented - reinstituting summer school/lifting, public statements on the need for facilities, etc. We may very well determine next year that they are not up to snuff, that there is no real progress being made, but I state emphatically my opinion that it is unfair and short-sighted to make that determination based on the abysmally poor recruiting results of the predecessor (acknowledging that Katrina had a lot to do with his failures). They are not competing on the same playing field as the competition.

There are a bunch of assumptions about talent which I believe to be erroneous. It is natural to think as fans that our guys are as good as at least some of our opponents, but I submit to you that is not the case. I think we're as good as Rice, talent-wise, SMU is not much better, and we're better than Army and McNeese. In my mind, in retrospect (having watched every snap from the sideline), Marshall and UTEP were more talented than us. Under just about any measurment you use, you can compare our recruiting to these places in the three years I reference to reach the same conclusion, whether it be the recruiting services, the "eye-test", whatever.

The program was never in a sorrier state than when Toledo took over. Lots of factors contributed to that. Comparisions to what Bowden was able to accomplish, or Scelfo, or whomever in a set amount of years are impossible. No one has ever stepped into this situation at Tulane.

We have to fix a bunch of things about the way we do things, but despite many valid criticisms that are out there, the most basic explanation for our lack of success this year was that we simply were not good enough. Of all of the problems this program faces right now, the ability or inability of the current staff to build a program and win football games is not a major one. Again, we can reach a point next year where we determine the coach is not up to snuff, and all of you can scream from the mountaintops you were right. I hope not, but I'm not making any bombastic guarantees. When reviewing the performance of this staff, a rational decisionmaker would consider as many circumstances and factors as possible before making a decision. I have no doubt Tulane is doing the same thing here.

Could the coaches have done some things better this year? Yes. Lots of things. RJ likes to say fans have a hard time deciphering strategy from execution, and they often think they're criticizing strategy when they are really questioning execution. That maxim applies here.


Last edited by JKO on Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:50 pm 
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[quote="long green"][quote="bigmoneytx"][quote="Pepper"]I think Pete asked a valid question.

What is your opinion is about what good things were accomplished this year that would give hope for next year.[/quote]

Its all relative to the individual person, it is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I have learned it doesnt matter what I or anyone else feels is good or bad - we all see things differently based on who we are what we know or think we know.

So what I feel is an accoplishment wont be the same to others because I see things WAY different than most everyone else, that is obvious.

:wink:[/quote]

I think Pepper asked a good question. I didn't notice an answer.

Your last statement is true, especially as it applies to the recent football season. I can't think of any accomplishments. The best I can do is say that I'm glad we beat Army on the road the way we did, the UTEP game was exciting, and that's really it. On the individual level, I'm glad Andre got his 1,000 yards. He deserved that and far more than that.[/quote]

Big$,
The reason I wanted to know is anyone with a negative opinion usually gets slammed because "they don't know" or "they think they know". I wanted your expert opinion on the accomplishments of this year's football team. You are not obligated to answer, just wanted an insider's perspective.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:11 pm 
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JKO you make several valid points. I am glad that YOU brought up the point about certain players not giving 100%. I too noticed that, but didn't want to be told I was just trying to bash a player, or trying to implement some infamous agenda against Tulane. I too feel that Toledos first recruiting class shouldn't really count since like you said, he only had a limited number of days to really recruit. Next year there really should be some improvent on the field and YES on the scoreboard. I am still behind Toledo and staff, and I think recruiting is improving. Im not saying next year needs to be make or break, but the excuses are going to be harder to accept next season.

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