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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:20 pm 
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Thank you JKO.

That is exactly what I was trying to accomplish when I posted this

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29447

Great post.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:30 pm 
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we should make it a "sticky" if for no other reason than to act as a counterpoint to the other POV's being expressed.

I just hope and pray you're right JKO, because, sadly, in the end the fan only looks at wins and losses and we were dismal in that department again this year. Thanks for posting.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:36 pm 
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GreenieBacker wrote:

in the end the fan only looks at wins and losses.


:idea: Maybe I am not truly a fan yet, never will be I guess if thats the case - but it is a good point that brings some clarity to the situation

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:42 pm 
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BMT - I asked what you thought were positives from this past year and never got an answer (despite others trying to help). I know your opinions may differ from others, but that is not reason to not share them. It does (as others suggested) sound like you are avoiding the question. As I said in my post, I am not trying to be negative, I am just curious. Because for non-insiders like me, who live 800 miles away and only saw a few games on TV this year (and none in person), it's hard to find positives.

JKO - it's good to hear what you say and I really want to believe it. I just hope all of these young guys who played so much in the past year or two keep the faith, stay focused on working hard, and truly get better, in skill, strength, speed, what-have-you. Couple all of that with the experience they are already getting, and they may all become really good players. I just hope you are right - that the guys who are not "on board" are all graduating this year or next, and that they have not spread that attitude to the underclassmen. And... and this is a big "and" in my mind... I hope it *is* possible to win in CUSA today without running the spread.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:51 pm 
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well BMT, it looks like we have a pretty good handle on how many fans will come to our games if we keep losing like we have.......about 3,500-5,000 hardy souls. The others seem to find other things to do on Game Day.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:53 pm 
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Quote:
All he is saying is that we won 3 games, not 1, and playing the "what if" game, suggesting 2 wins don't really count, is bogus. Is that really so hard to understand?


Taking what my original comment was referring to - and putting it back into context - Thank you.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:23 pm 
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I'll drive in from Lafayette every single weekend, if Dan Dodd/Bob Toledo will offer the following in the way of offensive innovation:

1) QB sneak on the first ten 1 yard opportunities we have - mixing in a hurry up QB sneak a la Tommy Bowden/Rich Rod. (I’ll secretly be satisfied if we run anything but off-tackle).

2) Never, ever run a two-tight, two-wide set on 3rd and anything over 5 yards to go.

3) Run at least 10 reverses before ever running a double reverse.

4) Never run a play out of wildcat that does not give the QB an option to hand the ball off.

5) Never, ever call a play requiring a 5-step drop on 3rd down.

6) On passing plays, especially on third and 7-11, always have your RB in the flat as a safety valve to avoid taking the inevitable drive killing 10 yard sack.

7) Avoid targeting one receiver for 75% of all passing plays in a single game.

8) Get as much of the young talent on the field at one time as possible (Banks, Figaro, Sullen, Grant, Van Hooser, Robbottom, Stephen Barnett, Payten Jason, and Albert Williams - a combo of four of these guys on the field at all times would be a dream come true)

Obviously this is not meant to be an exhaustive list, nor a list to be followed absolutely (except number 2), but it'd be a good start in my book if this staff used these as guidelines going into next year. At the very least, it would prove to me that this staff is not too stubborn as to not mix things up to fit its talent.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:44 pm 
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FYI

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... Notepad%29

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:50 pm 
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Big EZ Wave wrote:


Intresting... I didn't know the admin was getting frustrated with Toledo.... Funny how this fella knows that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:11 pm 
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[quote="olivengreen"][quote="Big EZ Wave"]FYI

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports ... Notepad%29[/quote]

Intresting... I didn't know the admin was getting frustrated with Toledo.... Funny how this fella knows that.[/quote]


IMHO, I don't think this guy really heard this. He's basing his thinking on what a real administration would be thinking. He obviously does know the Tulane Administration.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:21 pm 
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yeah, i agree. plus, this is only his third year. im sure they are willing to let him finish his contract.... Tulane usually does that.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Lafwave wrote:
I'll drive in from Lafayette every single weekend, if Dan Dodd/Bob Toledo will offer the following in the way of offensive innovation:

1) QB sneak on the first ten 1 yard opportunities we have - mixing in a hurry up QB sneak a la Tommy Bowden/Rich Rod. (I’ll secretly be satisfied if we run anything but off-tackle).

2) Never, ever run a two-tight, two-wide set on 3rd and anything over 5 yards to go.

3) Run at least 10 reverses before ever running a double reverse.

4) Never run a play out of wildcat that does not give the QB an option to hand the ball off.

5) Never, ever call a play requiring a 5-step drop on 3rd down.

6) On passing plays, especially on third and 7-11, always have your RB in the flat as a safety valve to avoid taking the inevitable drive killing 10 yard sack.

7) Avoid targeting one receiver for 75% of all passing plays in a single game.

8) Get as much of the young talent on the field at one time as possible (Banks, Figaro, Sullen, Grant, Van Hooser, Robbottom, Stephen Barnett, Payten Jason, and Albert Williams - a combo of four of these guys on the field at all times would be a dream come true)

Obviously this is not meant to be an exhaustive list, nor a list to be followed absolutely (except number 2), but it'd be a good start in my book if this staff used these as guidelines going into next year. At the very least, it would prove to me that this staff is not too stubborn as to not mix things up to fit its talent.


1) Maybe - we have a "small" center which makes this difficult
2) and 3) YES
4) YES - plus the hand-off needs to be faked well, not half-arse
5) YES
6) YES - and what about in 1st and 2nd on play action
7) YES (foaming at the mouth evident)
8) YES, YES, YES.

I go to each game whether this is implemented or not. The retraction of this O makes it more and more difficult each year. Our group has dwindled from about 15 to 5 (on a good day).


Last edited by 1401973 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:26 pm 
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JKO wrote:
Another thing I observed this year was that there were too many older guys to whom winning football games for Tulane University was not enough of a priority. Again, I'm not going to name names, as I have no tangible proof to back my thoughts on this. The young guys seem to buy into what the staff and Toledo are preaching, and that's a good thing. There are always exceptions going both ways, as is the case in all human affairs.

Isn't that a coaching issue? You get the players to play hard?
Didn't Teevens last team "vote" or some other such nonsense to not come out of the 2nd half against Army because it was too cold? Bowden took care of that attitude his first spring on campus. And the second he left, the attitudes returned because Scelfo was much softer than Bowden.
I know we have talent shortfalls, youth and all that.
But we also have coaching shortfalls.
49-0 and 52 yards v. average UCF speaks for itself.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:59 pm 
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GSx wrote:
JKO wrote:
Another thing I observed this year was that there were too many older guys to whom winning football games for Tulane University was not enough of a priority. Again, I'm not going to name names, as I have no tangible proof to back my thoughts on this. The young guys seem to buy into what the staff and Toledo are preaching, and that's a good thing. There are always exceptions going both ways, as is the case in all human affairs.

Isn't that a coaching issue? You get the players to play hard?
Didn't Teevens last team "vote" or some other such nonsense to not come out of the 2nd half against Army because it was too cold? Bowden took care of that attitude his first spring on campus. And the second he left, the attitudes returned because Scelfo was much softer than Bowden.
I know we have talent shortfalls, youth and all that.
But we also have coaching shortfalls.
49-0 and 52 yards v. average UCF speaks for itself.


Average UCF lost 4 games - v. Miami, at USM, at ECU, at Texas. They were far bigger and far stronger than us up front. Morgan was out, Nierman at guard and Ray at center. We were overmatched significantly without that. They had 2 defensive lineman with 10 sacks coming into the game, and a third who will be a high draft pick. Would you be happier if we put up 150 yards against them? Did we lay an egg? Yes. Could the coaches have done a better job? Yes. I'm sorry it offends you that UCF is far more advanced as a program than us right now. Just because they shouldn't be doesn't mean they are not (which, although I'd like to believe they "shouldn't be" because of their upstart status and our tradition, should be considered in light of the fact UCF, with its enrollment, gets $20 mil a year from student fees, prior to collecting a dime from any other revenue source).

Bowden had far better players at his disposal. He had the luxury of running guys off, or at least threatening to do so, and those threats were made almost daily. We already played 18 frosh this year, we hear all of the time about attrition, do you propose he run even more of these guys off? It isn't like they are doody on the practice field and flipping off their coaches and declaring to the world they don't give a crap. Judging a player's motivation is not easy, and the problem is greatly compounded when those players are hopelessly overmatched week after week. Are you going to run a ton of players off based on an instinct that they should go, when you are woefully short of contributors already?

I don't know what happened under Scelfo. I was so pissed about the RR thing, I didn't come back into the fold until 2001 or so. Personally, I was never impressed by him. I've heard anecdotes of former teammates which are depressing. The "problem" guys in 1996 were not the same ones in 1999. The halftime vote thing is urban legend. The issues I describe are far harder to identify. I understand what you are trying to say, but it has no rational basis other than in broad generalizations.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:24 pm 
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[/quote]

Average UCF lost 4 games - v. Miami, at USM, at ECU, at Texas. They were far bigger and far stronger than us up front. Morgan was out, Nierman at guard and Ray at center. We were overmatched significantly without that. They had 2 defensive lineman with 10 sacks coming into the game, and a third who will be a high draft pick. Would you be happier if we put up 150 yards against them? Did we lay an egg? Yes. Could the coaches have done a better job? Yes. I'm sorry it offends you that UCF is far more advanced as a program than us right now. Just because they shouldn't be doesn't mean they are not (which, although I'd like to believe they "shouldn't be" because of their upstart status and our tradition, should be considered in light of the fact UCF, with its enrollment, gets $20 mil a year from student fees, prior to collecting a dime from any other revenue source).[/quote]

You can't explain away this game. While I think UCF is above average, I think they are BARELY above average. They barely beat Samford, Buffalo, MArshall and UAB. 50 yards - end of story.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:50 pm 
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I'm not trying to "explain away" anything. I'm trying to call attention to factors which are apparently ignored, and, hopefully, encourage people to see things from a different point of view.

If we put up 150 yards, would it have made a difference? That was a terrible match up for us and we got whipped. UCF was able to completely take away Texas' run game, but Texas had a Heisman QB and a line of future NFL guys to make things work. We didn't have the same luxury. Could we have done things differently to generate more offense? Undoubtedly. Certainly the coaches bear blame, perhaps a ton - I've never argued they are faultless in all of this. The point is it is impossible to know with any sort of exactitude where the problem with personnel ends and the problem with coaching begins, when you are so overwhelmingly overmatched. It is simply too early to pass the decisive judgments some here are willing to pass, based primarily on feelings and instinct, and little factual support.

BTW, UCF also whipped Houston after they received their wake up call from UTEP in a game Houston needed. "barely" wins are wins.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:26 am 
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JKO - you can talk about match ups and NFL players all day. This is the "explaining away" I was talking about, and it doesn't hold water. Samford and the others I mentioned had no problems with these overwhelming matchups. Were there match-up issues when UCF played their scrubs for much of the second half? Our starters still couldn't do a thing.
No one, at least not me, is trying to define the EXACT problem. But we should all agree that 50 yards is a problem. Perfectly OK to point out what seems to be an ill-prepared, not ready to play/fight team that produced the worst offensive output since the advent of the forward pass.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:30 am 
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JKO, there are some truths and half-truths there.

certainly you're right that the coaches can't always be blamed for execution errors. Let's take special teams for example. Early in the season we had Banks holding on placements. He bobbled one, and the next week we inserted Ponder. He then bobbled one that cost us a blocked FG at USM, and then bobbled another one on the missed XP at Rice. Then Thevenot drops the ball, unfortunately not on his right foot, at UCF. I find it very difficult to fault the staff for this kind of botching of routine 2x2 football execution.

but let's stay with special teams and look at the punt team. We knew the problem last year and had an entire offseason to fix it. we failed. So then in midseason, we scrap the scheme we've practiced for the past 2-3 years, install a shield formation, and then proceed to get another couple or three punts blocked. These were blamed by the coaches on a slow punter, a slow snapper, and recognition problems by the shield blockers. Execution. Yet for me that execution excuse carries far less weight than it does when we're talking about the dropping of a snap into one's hands.

Or the dropping of a wide open pass that would have resulted in a 95 yard TD on a fake punt. But I digress. 8)

I can take the losses while we're trying to implement a philosophy. And I'm certainly familiar with the Bare Cupboard Theory, which was also the self-preservation reaction of the Scelfo regime after the '99 debacle. I will point out that this season, according to our head coach, was supposed to feature our deepest, most experienced, best, most talented team, even if the record, as he hedged it, wasn't any better. That promise of August wasn't delivered between the lines. "Scelfo's Chickens Come Home to Roost" was not the public or private prediction of what to expect.

My main problem isn't that we still are a couple of classes away from being a complete football team. I get that. What I don't like is that we were promised when this regime arrived that we were going to be a tough, physical football team and that we would impose our will on the "soft" spread teams on our schedule. We sort of saw glimpses the last few years-Bama and ECU last year, LSU the year before, maybe Army this season. And there are individual exceptions like Echebelem and Anderson. But by and large we haven't been able to create that environment. In a sport in general and our schemes in particular that require a critical mass of tough guys, we are too often drowned in a sea of tentative, flag football-ish arm tackling, walrus-on-skates line play on both sides, backs getting crunched in the backfield etc. We're soft, overall. Soft physically, soft between the ears, soft in terms of execution. Mackey can't get eligible soon enough.

Overmatched? Sure, in some cases. But we were far outclassed by Alabama last year and LSU the year before, and we were able to rise up at least on defense. I see a lot of scheme recognition sloppiness, especially on offense, with this bunch considering we've been teaching a limited version of the scheme for three years. But most of all I want to see us strike people. There's a reason why we're last in America in takeaways and couldn't run the football consistently despite a commitment to it. We got pushed around and bullied as well as run past, and we didn't deal well with either physical or finesse opponents.

Coach didn't get through this year. People complain about his demeanor, but I well remember the one game where he told the sideline reporter that he had basically thrown chairs and cussed at halftime (was it USM?), and we responded to that by doing...nothing. If he was tuned out by a number of players, that's on him to find a way and he wasn't able to do it.

I'm sure our coaches and our players have the will to win. I would hope they also have the will to prepare to win. Because that's what counts, that starts now, and it goes well beyond personnel and the incoming recruiting class. What we are doing, in all three phases, hasn't worked. Everything should be on the table this offseason or history will again repeat.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 10:30 am 
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Again, I've never said I believe the coaches are faultless, blameless or may not have serious problems. All I'm saying is that because of a pronounced lack of talent it is impossible to truly judge this staff. Moreover, it is unproductive to do so, as the decision was made to bring him back, just as it was reported on the Wave Report before any of my posts.

Undoubtedly, this staff needs to do some soul searching, and, undoubtedly, they need to make some changes in the way they are doing things.

Bayouman, I really respect your football acumen, as demonstrated countless times. You seem to blame the softness in far too many situations of this team on the staff. I put that primarily on the kids. They're the ones actually being soft. Sometimes, they aren't playing "soft" in the sense of passive play, they are just playing with 320 lbs bench presses (on the OL) and mediocre feet, and incapable of playing physical ball with those attributes. You could be right and I could be wrong.

I'm not going to nitpick everything, but, while I agree a scheme change in punt protection midseason can be a headscratcher, so is, even moreso, the abysmal failure to consistently get a punt off in the weeks preceding that change. Desperate times...

It does bother me that because Scelfo blew a bunch of smoke up people's asses about a bare cupboard when he took over that explanation is somehow out of play now. Scelfo was full of crap, and he was called on it by many. A review of the rosters will bear this out. I'll be happy to discuss privately my analysis of the cupboard Toledo inherited. The older guys Toledo inherited were a little better(Matt was a lot better, but not just him), on balance, than the young ones (but still not good enough). Just because the losing is tiresome and no one wants to hear it does not make it any less true. Unprecedented, at least in my lifetime.

1401973 - I didn't see any of their other games. I only reference UT because of the quote attributed to Greg Davis, Sr. UCF obviously appears to have been an inconsistent football team. Those other teams could have matched up better (not necessarily better teams than Tulane, just had better matchups against UCF). Who knows. I do know I watched us get annihilated in the trenches in that game, and it appeared men v. boys to me. Nonetheless, the game should have been 7-0 at half, but for a dropped routine catch by our most talented player, and the inexplicable dropped punt on the next play. Can't take it away, I know. We then proceeded to turn it over 3 times in 4.5 minutes to start the second half. At that point, we had to pass and we were in a world of trouble. Whatever happened after that point is meaningless, as the game was lost. UCF's starters also played most of the game. I think they put in their "scrubs" around the time we went to our backup personnel as well.

The biggest criticism I have of the staff for that game is allowing the whole "playoff" thing take shape. Apparently, the leadership council on the team came up with that. I think the coach has a responsibility to squelch that kind of talk because of precisely what happened -- lose early in the stretch, and there's a natural letdown. The "playoff" thing may have won the UTEP game (who knows, we did however win the game by a matter of inches). It was a risky play for the last quarter of the season.

Take this for what it is worth, because who knows what Tulane will ever do, I really feel, in talking to many sources, that 2010 is it. If there is not undisputed, tangible evidence of real progress, a change will be made. That's my opinion from reading the tea leaves, and not from the horse's mouth, so take it for what it is worth. If I'm reading it right, considering what was inherited, this seems fair.

I'm trying to plead to our fans - those of the fighting 5,000 :( , understanding the extreme frustration, we rally around these guys this year. The kids and the coaches are dealing with enough negativity from without. They've been retained, and it is time to give them support within. I always felt that the loyal, positive fan support helped contribute to the turnaround we made after the 1996 season. Those of us that are left now need to help contribute to the turnaround now.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:26 am 
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JKO wrote:
Take this for what it is worth, because who knows what Tulane will ever do, I really feel, in talking to many sources, that 2010 is it. If there is not undisputed, tangible evidence of real progress, a change will be made. That's my opinion from reading the tea leaves, and not from the horse's mouth, so take it for what it is worth. If I'm reading it right, considering what was inherited, this seems fair.


2010 would have to be it, given that the alternative would be a contract extension or a coach in the final year of his contract.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:50 am 
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JKO wrote:
Is that really so hard to understand?.


JKO wrote:
Again, I've never said


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:54 am 
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Quote:
You seem to blame the softness in far too many situations of this team on the staff. I put that primarily on the kids. They're the ones actually being soft. Sometimes, they aren't playing "soft" in the sense of passive play, they are just playing with 320 lbs bench presses (on the OL) and mediocre feet, and incapable of playing physical ball with those attributes. You could be right and I could be wrong.


Actually, I think it's a combination of both.

I'm focused on a handful of upperclassmen that I think were capable of doing a little more, and doing it a little more intensely, than they did it this year. I've always been a big believer in the size of the fight in the dog. It's great to have players, or employees for that matter, who find it within themselves. Unfortunately, that commodity is increasingly rare in the era we live in, and so it needs to be instilled and cultivated in those that aren't born with it. I believe that all men, the naturally timid as well as the naturally fearless, can be exhorted and led beyond their comfort zones.

Still, you're correct, especially as regards some of our younger players who did in fact go as hard as they could, with the ability they had.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:01 pm 
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bigmoneytx wrote:
JKO wrote:
Is that really so hard to understand?.


JKO wrote:
Again, I've never said


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Not (at all) sure what point you're making or who you're making it to, but I have to say that I preferred the large multi-colored fonts to the ubiquitous pictures (sorry, Pete).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 5:41 pm 
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JKO wrote:

1401973 - I didn't see any of their other games. I only reference UT because of the quote attributed to Greg Davis, Sr. UCF obviously appears to have been an inconsistent football team. Those other teams could have matched up better (not necessarily better teams than Tulane, just had better matchups against UCF). Who knows. I do know I watched us get annihilated in the trenches in that game, and it appeared men v. boys to me. Nonetheless, the game should have been 7-0 at half, but for a dropped routine catch by our most talented player, and the inexplicable dropped punt on the next play. Can't take it away, I know. We then proceeded to turn it over 3 times in 4.5 minutes to start the second half. At that point, we had to pass and we were in a world of trouble. Whatever happened after that point is meaningless, as the game was lost. UCF's starters also played most of the game. I think they put in their "scrubs" around the time we went to our backup personnel as well.


UAB - yes that UAB - put up 527 yards against UCF Sat. No one will ever be able to explain away 50 yards of offense. 10 Hellen Kellers and one Mini Me could have gained 50 yards. It was unacceptable.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:44 pm 
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UCF was the low point for me in the season. We definitely did not have the effort in that game. Our guys were just down. no excuse.

I do want to say that we have older players (ex) and new players that want to re-create the mentality of that '98 season. The expectation of winning is as important as almost anything else. Remember the '98's!!!

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