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 Post subject: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:03 pm 
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A great % of us here on YOGWF have been here for most of the years after it's birth. And even if you aren't here, but been a long time Green Wave fan, you know that following your chosen team has been, well, not easy or much fun. The Wave have been losing on the gridiron at a pretty consistent basis since the '50s. Since '50 the Green Wave have had three occasions where they put up back-to-back winning seasons ('55-'56, '72-'73, and '97-98) and one instance of back-to-back-to-back winning seasons ('79-'80-'81). Nothing Alabamerish about that. And since '03, they have posted one winning season ('13).

So why do I bring this up you ask. Because we all wish that we could grow our fandom into a "nation", something we haven't been in our lifetime. Well in order to do that we have to first build a program that an outsider would want to join. We have to have consistency on the gridiron...like having 5-6-7 or more winning years in a row to be able to get the throngs of uninterested fans to give us a look. And a look is only the first thing you want. You want them to show up at the games in throngs and then offer up some of there dollar bills to help build a consistently winning program. No one wants to throw good money after bad right! Obviously not an easy task, since it has never been done in our fandom. But we want some company who have smiles on their faces when the subject of Tulane sports (particularly football) comes up. I have been yearning for this for, well, decades. And I still am. Long enough to wonder if I'm ever going to see it come to fruition.

That being said, well...Roll Wave!!

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:48 pm 
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FAN SINCE "54 I have been a fan Since '62 and share your concern about our fan base. As per our attendance at athletic events it is plain to see that very few fans care for the way our programs are preforming. Since 1950 the main problem has been a unrealistic policy regarding academics and athletics. Unless Tulane is willing to give in somewhat on academics I don't see how we can ever build a fan base that we need to be a consistent winning program. Tulane athletic department should go back and look at what Perry Clark was allowed to do to build a very successful basketball program from scratch. The people that have run Tulane over the last 65 years have never been able to have a successful academic program and a successful athletic program at the same time. I would love to have that happen in my life time and I remain hopeful but doubtful. rjc


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:19 pm 
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Well if we can keep Fritz we may have a shot at some long term success in football! I think next year will be a good one!


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:25 pm 
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rjc wrote:
FAN SINCE "54 I have been a fan Since '62 and share your concern about our fan base. As per our attendance at athletic events it is plain to see that very few fans care for the way our programs are preforming. Since 1950 the main problem has been a unrealistic policy regarding academics and athletics. Unless Tulane is willing to give in somewhat on academics I don't see how we can ever build a fan base that we need to be a consistent winning program. Tulane athletic department should go back and look at what Perry Clark was allowed to do to build a very successful basketball program from scratch. The people that have run Tulane over the last 65 years have never been able to have a successful academic program and a successful athletic program at the same time. I would love to have that happen in my life time and I remain hopeful but doubtful. rjc


Over the last 50 years Tulane overall has been its own biggest problem. Today I dont belive that is the is the case. Fitts, Dannen, and company dont show any sogns of the mindset you speak of. The biggest problem for the mew regieme is that we are a Group of 5 school with a horrid track record in football and basketball over the last decade and a half.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:34 am 
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Poseidon wrote:
rjc wrote:
FAN SINCE "54 I have been a fan Since '62 and share your concern about our fan base. As per our attendance at athletic events it is plain to see that very few fans care for the way our programs are preforming. Since 1950 the main problem has been a unrealistic policy regarding academics and athletics. Unless Tulane is willing to give in somewhat on academics I don't see how we can ever build a fan base that we need to be a consistent winning program. Tulane athletic department should go back and look at what Perry Clark was allowed to do to build a very successful basketball program from scratch. The people that have run Tulane over the last 65 years have never been able to have a successful academic program and a successful athletic program at the same time. I would love to have that happen in my life time and I remain hopeful but doubtful. rjc


Over the last 50 years Tulane overall has been its own biggest problem. Today I dont belive that is the is the case. Fitts, Dannen, and company dont show any sogns of the mindset you speak of. The biggest problem for the mew regieme is that we are a Group of 5 school with a horrid track record in football and basketball over the last decade and a half.


The biggest problem is two-fold. First, how many new coaches (football) have actually hit the ground running in their first year and stayed on after that initial success. Uh, none. And only one actually "hit the ground running" in his first year (Bowden). The others who had some eventual success (Smith, Brown, and Pittman) left for, uh, greener pastures, which is probably a bad term to use in here. No stability after success. Any coach who has had any success at TU either couldn't sustain it and was fired (Ellender) or just saw Tulane as a stepping stone and bolted. Either scenario is not a recipe for continued success. A football program needs stability for long term success. And it needs success to have stability. Neither has seemed to have found it's way onto the Tulane campus in nearly 3/4 of a century.

FS'54

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:52 am 
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Well the bandwagon has to shine and be loud if fans are going to jump on board. Just Win Baby! Because Tulane now is a "national" university and not a Louisiana/regional one, we cannot incubate enough fans organically and locally. TOPS, P5 and LSU/SEC have seen to that. Winning (and the bigger the better) is the only thing that will put butts in the seats.

Separately we might as well address this again as was done months ago for those of you who don't feel good unless they worry about this stuff. We are married to Fritz and he to us so we all need for him to succeed. There is rampant ageism in hiring FBS HCs. Despite double digit openings last year, only once coach (Edwards) hired was older than Fritz. Miles has a fabulous resume and he can't get a sniff of an opportunity.

If Fritz goes undefeated then I guess someone like a Kansas with P5 resources could make a run at him but then Tulane would also throw the big bucks at him to retain him.

If Fritz is otherwise "reasonably" successful with consistent bowl teams and 8 to 10 wins annually, he is our Snyder and will be with us until he retires.


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:21 am 
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Baywave1 wrote:
Well the bandwagon has to shine and be loud if fans are going to jump on board. Just Win Baby! Because Tulane now is a "national" university and not a Louisiana/regional one, we cannot incubate enough fans organically and locally. TOPS, P5 and LSU/SEC have seen to that. Winning (and the bigger the better) is the only thing that will put butts in the seats.

Separately we might as well address this again as was done months ago for those of you who don't feel good unless they worry about this stuff. We are married to Fritz and he to us so we all need for him to succeed. There is rampant ageism in hiring FBS HCs. Despite double digit openings last year, only once coach (Edwards) hired was older than Fritz. Miles has a fabulous resume and he can't get a sniff of an opportunity.

If Fritz goes undefeated then I guess someone like a Kansas with P5 resources could make a run at him but then Tulane would also throw the big bucks at him to retain him.

If Fritz is otherwise "reasonably" successful with consistent bowl teams and 8 to 10 wins annually, he is our Snyder and will be with us until he retires.


Well, actually Tulane took care of that in '65.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:49 am 
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Fan Since '54 wrote:
Poseidon wrote:
rjc wrote:
FAN SINCE "54 I have been a fan Since '62 and share your concern about our fan base. As per our attendance at athletic events it is plain to see that very few fans care for the way our programs are preforming. Since 1950 the main problem has been a unrealistic policy regarding academics and athletics. Unless Tulane is willing to give in somewhat on academics I don't see how we can ever build a fan base that we need to be a consistent winning program. Tulane athletic department should go back and look at what Perry Clark was allowed to do to build a very successful basketball program from scratch. The people that have run Tulane over the last 65 years have never been able to have a successful academic program and a successful athletic program at the same time. I would love to have that happen in my life time and I remain hopeful but doubtful. rjc


Over the last 50 years Tulane overall has been its own biggest problem. Today I dont belive that is the is the case. Fitts, Dannen, and company dont show any sogns of the mindset you speak of. The biggest problem for the mew regieme is that we are a Group of 5 school with a horrid track record in football and basketball over the last decade and a half.


The biggest problem is two-fold. First, how many new coaches (football) have actually hit the ground running in their first year and stayed on after that initial success. Uh, none. And only one actually "hit the ground running" in his first year (Bowden). The others who had some eventual success (Smith, Brown, and Pittman) left for, uh, greener pastures, which is probably a bad term to use in here. No stability after success. Any coach who has had any success at TU either couldn't sustain it and was fired (Ellender) or just saw Tulane as a stepping stone and bolted. Either scenario is not a recipe for continued success. A football program needs stability for long term success. And it needs success to have stability. Neither has seemed to have found it's way onto the Tulane campus in nearly 3/4 of a century.

FS'54


Like you I have suffered through the losing for a long time. I agree with you for the most part on everything in this thread. I would note though that Miami also went through a number of coaches in their heyday but kept winning because they kept making good hires. Due to his age Fritz could be the one that stays here if successful but if he succeeds and moves on to a Kansas then make another good hire. That's where we blew it in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:37 pm 
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The reason that we have been unable to keep coaches that have succeeded is that they don't feel they can sustain success with all the hurdles that Tulane has in place. It is unrealistic to expect the athletes to perform in the classroom like the rest of the student body. The 12-0 season would not have happened if Tulane had its way. Bowden had to throw a fit and threaten to resign unless 12 players were reinstated after Tulane ruled that they didn't meet the Tulane standard yet were eligible by NCAA standards. Tulane gave in and the 12-0 season occurred. Bowden decided at that time he was leaving regardless what money we offered and he did. Every where Fitz has been he turned losing programs around in year 2. Going in to year 3 the few fans we have left are hoping to win 6 games, The s o call experts don't see that happening. I can't believe that a school like Florida, who is ranked higher academically than Tulane expects its athletes to preform in the class room like the rest of the student body. Unless Tulane is willing to do the same I don't see us ever having sustained success in athletics. We have a 68 year history that proves that. rjc


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:54 pm 
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rjc wrote:
The reason that we have been unable to keep coaches that have succeeded is that they don't feel they can sustain success with all the hurdles that Tulane has in place. It is unrealistic to expect the athletes to perform in the classroom like the rest of the student body. The 12-0 season would not have happened if Tulane had its way. Bowden had to throw a fit and threaten to resign unless 12 players were reinstated after Tulane ruled that they didn't meet the Tulane standard yet were eligible by NCAA standards. Tulane gave in and the 12-0 season occurred. Bowden decided at that time he was leaving regardless what money we offered and he did. Every where Fitz has been he turned losing programs around in year 2. Going in to year 3 the few fans we have left are hoping to win 6 games, The s o call experts don't see that happening. I can't believe that a school like Florida, who is ranked higher academically than Tulane expects its athletes to preform in the class room like the rest of the student body. Unless Tulane is willing to do the same I don't see us ever having sustained success in athletics. We have a 68 year history that proves that. rjc
Serious question. Why stay?

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:15 pm 
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rjc wrote:
The reason that we have been unable to keep coaches that have succeeded is that they don't feel they can sustain success with all the hurdles that Tulane has in place. It is unrealistic to expect the athletes to perform in the classroom like the rest of the student body. The 12-0 season would not have happened if Tulane had its way. Bowden had to throw a fit and threaten to resign unless 12 players were reinstated after Tulane ruled that they didn't meet the Tulane standard yet were eligible by NCAA standards. Tulane gave in and the 12-0 season occurred. Bowden decided at that time he was leaving regardless what money we offered and he did. Every where Fitz has been he turned losing programs around in year 2. Going in to year 3 the few fans we have left are hoping to win 6 games, The s o call experts don't see that happening. I can't believe that a school like Florida, who is ranked higher academically than Tulane expects its athletes to preform in the class room like the rest of the student body. Unless Tulane is willing to do the same I don't see us ever having sustained success in athletics. We have a 68 year history that proves that. rjc

To be fair, we weren't a losing program last year.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:35 pm 
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TUPF the reason some of us stayed as long as we have, we were brainwashed as youngsters by fathers or mothers. During the 70's and 80's I was in grade school enjoying some football success. It was a great feeling going to school bragging Tulane beat LSU 3 out of 4 years. Going to games was like an addiction for me. That started fading around the last few years of Scelfo. CJ came along and showed glimpses of sucess. But his stuborness led to his downfall. The stadium ordeal kept me a little longer in the mix. But that too subsided. Now I just come on this board once in a while to see if Tulane changed its tune on recruiting. As of now, Im not too impressed.


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Wavemania wrote:
TUPF the reason some of us stayed as long as we have, we were brainwashed as youngsters by fathers or mothers. During the 70's and 80's I was in grade school enjoying some football success. It was a great feeling going to school bragging Tulane beat LSU 3 out of 4 years. Going to games was like an addiction for me. That started fading around the last few years of Scelfo. CJ came along and showed glimpses of sucess. But his stuborness led to his downfall. The stadium ordeal kept me a little longer in the mix. But that too subsided. Now I just come on this board once in a while to see if Tulane changed its tune on recruiting. As of now, Im not too impressed.


It's no surprise, but the above shows you haven't been paying attention.


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Wavemania wrote:
TUPF the reason some of us stayed as long as we have, we were brainwashed as youngsters by fathers or mothers.

You ought to try putting on your big boy pants and acting like it. All you do is come here and diss Tulane for this or that. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you want to give up, that's your prerogative, just have the class to just say nothing. I guess you forgot your mother's lesson, "if you can't say something nice about someone, just say nothing at all."

Generally speaking, I'm not terribly fond of fans who never went to the school they root for and who constantly whine about failures--I don't care if it's Tulane or in-state U. When we start winning in football, you'll be back. Everything goes in cycles. See you on the bandwagon.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:06 pm 
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My recently departed 90 year old father-in-law is my loyalty role model. Born in 1927, he never gave up on Philadelphia sports teams and that’s saying something. The Phillies have the most losses of any professional sports franchise in history but he was still watching until 2 days before he passed. He loved the Eagles and I only wish he could have seen their first Super Bowl win. Years of losing had no bearing. He was a Philly guy.

So no, Tulane sports is a walk in the park next to him sneaking into Schibe Park and Franklin Field as a kid. I have about 30 years more to match him.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Rotorooter wrote:
Wavemania wrote:
TUPF the reason some of us stayed as long as we have, we were brainwashed as youngsters by fathers or mothers.

You ought to try putting on your big boy pants and acting like it. All you do is come here and diss Tulane for this or that. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you want to give up, that's your prerogative, just have the class to just say nothing. I guess you forgot your mother's lesson, "if you can't say something nice about someone, just say nothing at all."

Generally speaking, I'm not terribly fond of fans who never went to the school they root for and who constantly whine about failures--I don't care if it's Tulane or in-state U. When we start winning in football, you'll be back. Everything goes in cycles. See you on the bandwagon.


You do realize the ignorance of your statement ? Tulane has always tried to market this team as New Orleans team. There was a bumper sticker to that affect in the 70's that drove LSU fans nuts. Right now Tulane is selling the program as "NOLA's college football team." If you think no one is at the games now take those that didn't go to Tulane out of those that have been there and there really wouldn't be anyone there. Tulane would have been D-3 before Cowen if not for locals supporting the program of a school they never went to.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:06 am 
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wavedom wrote:
Rotorooter wrote:
Wavemania wrote:
TUPF the reason some of us stayed as long as we have, we were brainwashed as youngsters by fathers or mothers.

You ought to try putting on your big boy pants and acting like it. All you do is come here and diss Tulane for this or that. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. If you want to give up, that's your prerogative, just have the class to just say nothing. I guess you forgot your mother's lesson, "if you can't say something nice about someone, just say nothing at all."

Generally speaking, I'm not terribly fond of fans who never went to the school they root for and who constantly whine about failures--I don't care if it's Tulane or in-state U. When we start winning in football, you'll be back. Everything goes in cycles. See you on the bandwagon.


You do realize the ignorance of your statement ? Tulane has always tried to market this team as New Orleans team. There was a bumper sticker to that affect in the 70's that drove LSU fans nuts. Right now Tulane is selling the program as "NOLA's college football team." If you think no one is at the games now take those that didn't go to Tulane out of those that have been there and there really wouldn't be anyone there. Tulane would have been D-3 before Cowen if not for locals supporting the program of a school they never went to.

Of course, Tulane needs and wants New Orleans area fans who did not attend the school. Rotorooter commented "generally" about folks who did not attend but constantly whine about failures. He was not dissing fans who did not attend the school. Nothing ignorant there IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:17 am 
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A fan is a fan. There's no different privileges for one than another. If he wanted to say that he didn't like fans who only showed up to complain that's one thing. Trying to say that if one didn't go to Tulane they don't have that privilege is ignorant.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:27 am 
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he did say that. You're misrepresenting his post. And this will be my last post on this Topic since I generally avoid Pity Parties.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:10 am 
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wavedom wrote:
A fan is a fan. There's no different privileges for one than another. If he wanted to say that he didn't like fans who only showed up to complain that's one thing. Trying to say that if one didn't go to Tulane they don't have that privilege is ignorant.
Who are you trying to kid? There is a lot of difference between someone who is a fan because they have a deep personal attachment and someone who chose to be a fan for their own reasons.
I have low regard for anyone who is an alumnus of any university who is not also a fan of their athletic teams. But to CHOOSE to be a fan of a team, and then complain about them is a form of self-flagellation, and that seems a bit disingenuous.


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:46 am 
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TUPF wrote:
rjc wrote:
The reason that we have been unable to keep coaches that have succeeded is that they don't feel they can sustain success with all the hurdles that Tulane has in place. It is unrealistic to expect the athletes to perform in the classroom like the rest of the student body. The 12-0 season would not have happened if Tulane had its way. Bowden had to throw a fit and threaten to resign unless 12 players were reinstated after Tulane ruled that they didn't meet the Tulane standard yet were eligible by NCAA standards. Tulane gave in and the 12-0 season occurred. Bowden decided at that time he was leaving regardless what money we offered and he did. Every where Fitz has been he turned losing programs around in year 2. Going in to year 3 the few fans we have left are hoping to win 6 games, The s o call experts don't see that happening. I can't believe that a school like Florida, who is ranked higher academically than Tulane expects its athletes to preform in the class room like the rest of the student body. Unless Tulane is willing to do the same I don't see us ever having sustained success in athletics. We have a 68 year history that proves that. rjc
Serious question. Why stay?


I'll bite here. I don't think there was a reason to stay for Bowden. At the time, he made the only move there was to make. We had a school president who just wrote a book mocking the state of college football. Any coach worth his salt would have left with Cowen as president. The writing was on the wall that he wasn't going to do what was required to turn us into a big time program. Every decision he made after Bowden left proved that Bowden was right to leave.

It's different now, though. We have a board who wants to win. We have an athletic director who wants to do more than just keep the programs alive. We are in a conference that is in much better shape than CUSA ever was. The pay in our conference is competitive with some of the P5 schools. A guy like Fritz spent his whole career working jobs where he was underpaid and overworked. Now, he's at a place that he likes, where he is paid extremely well and where he will get every opportunity to build the program the way that he wants to. That's not going to happen at many schools, especially in the P5. If he continues to improve and goes to bowls yearly, he'll be able to coach at Tulane forever if he wants and he'll be able to run the program however he wants.

Going to a school like Kansas is only attractive to Fritz because that's where he's from. Fritz has made more money over the past 2 years at Tulane than David Beaty has made at Kansas. Kansas high school football is about as barren as it gets from a talent perspective. Kansas State survives on JUCO players (who Kansas won't admit) and kids from out of state. Kansas doesn't pump money into its football program like it does its basketball program. You are always second fiddle there. After firing Mark Mangino in 2009, the most wins they've had in a season is 3. They've had 3 total in the past 3 seasons and only 1 of those was against an FBS school (Texas in 2016). Since 2011, they've won only 6 games against FBS teams. And they have to play Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, TCU, Kansas State, etc. every year. It's about as hard a job as there is for about the same pay as Tulane. I just don't see the appeal. If it's the right offer...i.e. a school that is going to pay him $3 million plus a year and who has a chance to win a national championship, then that could entice him to leave. But he won't leave for just any P5 job.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:57 am 
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GreenieBacker wrote:
he did say that. You're misrepresenting his post. And this will be my last post on this Topic since I generally avoid Pity Parties.


I didn't misrepresent his post.

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:58 am 
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Roller wrote:
wavedom wrote:
A fan is a fan. There's no different privileges for one than another. If he wanted to say that he didn't like fans who only showed up to complain that's one thing. Trying to say that if one didn't go to Tulane they don't have that privilege is ignorant.
Who are you trying to kid? There is a lot of difference between someone who is a fan because they have a deep personal attachment and someone who chose to be a fan for their own reasons.
I have low regard for anyone who is an alumnus of any university who is not also a fan of their athletic teams. But to CHOOSE to be a fan of a team, and then complain about them is a form of self-flagellation, and that seems a bit disingenuous.


So fans of pro teams can never complain. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:03 am 
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yes you did at least two of us are telling you that you're reading something into it that is not there. But if that's how you want to look at it, carry on.

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After a while, the residents of the sea do not hear the sound of the waves.
How bitter it is, the story of routine- Arabic (Anon)


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 Post subject: Re: The stigma of losing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:35 am 
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Cornerstone
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Joined: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:30 pm
Posts: 30475
Location: 30°37'40.6"N 81°27'02.4"W
wavedom wrote:
Roller wrote:
wavedom wrote:
A fan is a fan. There's no different privileges for one than another. If he wanted to say that he didn't like fans who only showed up to complain that's one thing. Trying to say that if one didn't go to Tulane they don't have that privilege is ignorant.
Who are you trying to kid? There is a lot of difference between someone who is a fan because they have a deep personal attachment and someone who chose to be a fan for their own reasons.
I have low regard for anyone who is an alumnus of any university who is not also a fan of their athletic teams. But to CHOOSE to be a fan of a team, and then complain about them is a form of self-flagellation, and that seems a bit disingenuous.


So fans of pro teams can never complain. :roll:
Their loyalties are a personal choice. If they don't like the way things are being done, they are always free to move to another team.
One does not change one's Alma Mater. That is an important distinction between the types of fans. Like brand loyalty versus family loyalty.


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