I have found it

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windywave
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I have found it

Post by windywave »

The solution to our basketball issues

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009 ... ts-goliath
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gerryb323
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Re: I have found it

Post by gerryb323 »

That's a great article
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PeteRasche
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Re: I have found it

Post by PeteRasche »

I read that whole thing thinking, "wow, this reminds me a lot of The Outliers." And then I get to the end and see it was written by Malcolm Gladwell... 8)

How did you find a random article from a decade ago?

Good points, though.

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Re: I have found it

Post by gerryb323 »

It's also interesting about the basketball connection with Ranadivé before he became an NBA owner
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Re: I have found it

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PeteRasche wrote:I read that whole thing thinking, "wow, this reminds me a lot of The Outliers." And then I get to the end and see it was written by Malcolm Gladwell... 8)

How did you find a random article from a decade ago?

Good points, though.


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PeteRasche
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Re: I have found it

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Full disclosure, I didn't know Ranadive's name at all, nor that he's now an NBA owner. Nor, upon Googling, that his daughter, so frequently mentioned, is now apparently an Indian-American pop star (I'm sure daddy's money didn't hurt that endeavor).

Of course I'm guessing windy knows the story since this guy apparently invented the software used in all the trading markets.

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Re: I have found it

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PeteRasche wrote:Full disclosure, I didn't know Ranadive's name at all, nor that he's now an NBA owner. Nor, upon Googling, that his daughter, so frequently mentioned, is now apparently an Indian-American pop star (I'm sure daddy's money didn't hurt that endeavor).

Of course I'm guessing windy knows the story since this guy apparently invented the software used in all the trading markets.


Nope complete ignorance on every single point you made. It was more about winning with sub-optimal talent and pressing
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MattK
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Re: I have found it

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windywave wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:Full disclosure, I didn't know Ranadive's name at all, nor that he's now an NBA owner. Nor, upon Googling, that his daughter, so frequently mentioned, is now apparently an Indian-American pop star (I'm sure daddy's money didn't hurt that endeavor).

Of course I'm guessing windy knows the story since this guy apparently invented the software used in all the trading markets.


Nope complete ignorance on every single point you made. It was more about winning with sub-optimal talent and pressing


I'm pretty sure the point isn't about pressing, at least not at the college level. It's more about doing something that isn't expected. If you have sub-optimal talent and press all game every game, presumably your opponent will be prepared for it.

The article did talk about Petino, but I'm pretty sure his teams didn't suffer from sub-optimal talent.

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Re: I have found it

Post by gerryb323 »

MattK wrote:
windywave wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:Full disclosure, I didn't know Ranadive's name at all, nor that he's now an NBA owner. Nor, upon Googling, that his daughter, so frequently mentioned, is now apparently an Indian-American pop star (I'm sure daddy's money didn't hurt that endeavor).

Of course I'm guessing windy knows the story since this guy apparently invented the software used in all the trading markets.


Nope complete ignorance on every single point you made. It was more about winning with sub-optimal talent and pressing


I'm pretty sure the point isn't about pressing, at least not at the college level. It's more about doing something that isn't expected. If you have sub-optimal talent and press all game every game, presumably your opponent will be prepared for it.

The article did talk about Petino, but I'm pretty sure his teams didn't suffer from sub-optimal talent.

Although it did kinda try to argue that with the whole "Antoine Walker was his only NBA all star". I almost did a spit take with that one
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Re: I have found it

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Yeah, the idea is doing something different. It is indeed a legit best way for an underdog to win when completely outmanned. Could be applied to Tulane 1998 offense, no?

But in basketball, what is there now? Pressing full court does make sense from the aspect of taking a bigger, more talented team potentially out of their comfort zone. I remember when Everhart took over at Duquesne (or was it Northeastern?) and there was a shooting on campus and he lost players and ended up with like 9 on the bench, and he decided to go full court the whole game and rotate everyone. They pulled some upsets, even though half the guys they threw out there were barely D1 level. It was their only chance. I was reminded of it when the story talked about the Fordham upset at UMass with Dr. J. Similarly, I remember back when I was in grade school, before the shot clock, Cincinnati played Kentucky in basketball. Cincinnati, a huge underdog (UK ended up in the Final Four, UC ended up 3-25), ran the 4 corners stall. They lost, 24-11, but it was actually a much closer game in the final minutes. Had they played straight up, UK probably wins by 40.


But these days it takes a pretty amazing press to actually upset a really good opponent. Most top teams in D1 can handle a press in their sleep. And as was pointed out near the end of the story, all any opponent of the underdog had to do was press back. Ranadive's team would have folded, and any major underdog with significantly less talent likely would too.

So what do you do differently these days? It kinda feels like it's all been done.

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Re: I have found it

Post by ml wave »

PeteRasche wrote:Yeah, the idea is doing something different. It is indeed a legit best way for an underdog to win when completely outmanned. Could be applied to Tulane 1998 offense, no?

But in basketball, what is there now? Pressing full court does make sense from the aspect of taking a bigger, more talented team potentially out of their comfort zone. I remember when Everhart took over at Duquesne (or was it Northeastern?) and there was a shooting on campus and he lost players and ended up with like 9 on the bench, and he decided to go full court the whole game and rotate everyone. They pulled some upsets, even though half the guys they threw out there were barely D1 level. It was their only chance. I was reminded of it when the story talked about the Fordham upset at UMass with Dr. J. Similarly, I remember back when I was in grade school, before the shot clock, Cincinnati played Kentucky in basketball. Cincinnati, a huge underdog (UK ended up in the Final Four, UC ended up 3-25), ran the 4 corners stall. They lost, 24-11, but it was actually a much closer game in the final minutes. Had they played straight up, UK probably wins by 40.


But these days it takes a pretty amazing press to actually upset a really good opponent. Most top teams in D1 can handle a press in their sleep. And as was pointed out near the end of the story, all any opponent of the underdog had to do was press back. Ranadive's team would have folded, and any major underdog with significantly less talent likely would too.

So what do you do differently these days? It kinda feels like it's all been done.

Now they're just firing up 3s, and hoping for a positive variance on shooting %s.

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Re: I have found it

Post by gerryb323 »

ml wave wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:Yeah, the idea is doing something different. It is indeed a legit best way for an underdog to win when completely outmanned. Could be applied to Tulane 1998 offense, no?

But in basketball, what is there now? Pressing full court does make sense from the aspect of taking a bigger, more talented team potentially out of their comfort zone. I remember when Everhart took over at Duquesne (or was it Northeastern?) and there was a shooting on campus and he lost players and ended up with like 9 on the bench, and he decided to go full court the whole game and rotate everyone. They pulled some upsets, even though half the guys they threw out there were barely D1 level. It was their only chance. I was reminded of it when the story talked about the Fordham upset at UMass with Dr. J. Similarly, I remember back when I was in grade school, before the shot clock, Cincinnati played Kentucky in basketball. Cincinnati, a huge underdog (UK ended up in the Final Four, UC ended up 3-25), ran the 4 corners stall. They lost, 24-11, but it was actually a much closer game in the final minutes. Had they played straight up, UK probably wins by 40.


But these days it takes a pretty amazing press to actually upset a really good opponent. Most top teams in D1 can handle a press in their sleep. And as was pointed out near the end of the story, all any opponent of the underdog had to do was press back. Ranadive's team would have folded, and any major underdog with significantly less talent likely would too.

So what do you do differently these days? It kinda feels like it's all been done.

Now they're just firing up 3s, and hoping for a positive variance on shooting %s.

I think that's right. The problem with shooting fast 3s is that your opponent then can do the same. That's why the NBA games are 150-145
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Re: I have found it

Post by ml wave »

gerryb323 wrote:
ml wave wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:Yeah, the idea is doing something different. It is indeed a legit best way for an underdog to win when completely outmanned. Could be applied to Tulane 1998 offense, no?

But in basketball, what is there now? Pressing full court does make sense from the aspect of taking a bigger, more talented team potentially out of their comfort zone. I remember when Everhart took over at Duquesne (or was it Northeastern?) and there was a shooting on campus and he lost players and ended up with like 9 on the bench, and he decided to go full court the whole game and rotate everyone. They pulled some upsets, even though half the guys they threw out there were barely D1 level. It was their only chance. I was reminded of it when the story talked about the Fordham upset at UMass with Dr. J. Similarly, I remember back when I was in grade school, before the shot clock, Cincinnati played Kentucky in basketball. Cincinnati, a huge underdog (UK ended up in the Final Four, UC ended up 3-25), ran the 4 corners stall. They lost, 24-11, but it was actually a much closer game in the final minutes. Had they played straight up, UK probably wins by 40.


But these days it takes a pretty amazing press to actually upset a really good opponent. Most top teams in D1 can handle a press in their sleep. And as was pointed out near the end of the story, all any opponent of the underdog had to do was press back. Ranadive's team would have folded, and any major underdog with significantly less talent likely would too.

So what do you do differently these days? It kinda feels like it's all been done.

Now they're just firing up 3s, and hoping for a positive variance on shooting %s.

I think that's right. The problem with shooting fast 3s is that your opponent then can do the same. That's why the NBA games are 150-145
If you're outmanned, you'd want to minimize possessions instead of playing fast. The more possessions there are, the more likely the "better" team will prevail.

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Re: I have found it

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Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.
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Re: I have found it

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TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.

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Re: I have found it

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PeteRasche wrote:
TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.


Didn’t we run the modern version of the four corners under Conroy? Hold the ball til the shot clock expires and heave a desperation shot?

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Re: I have found it

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MattK wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.


Didn’t we run the modern version of the four corners under Conroy? Hold the ball til the shot clock expires and heave a desperation shot?

Smith's version included cuts that resulted in easy scores. Conroy's version.... notsomuch.

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Re: I have found it

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PeteRasche wrote:
MattK wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.


Didn’t we run the modern version of the four corners under Conroy? Hold the ball til the shot clock expires and heave a desperation shot?

Smith's version included cuts that resulted in easy scores. Conroy's version.... notsomuch.
Yup, that’s the story. My take is that the opposing team got so stultifyingly bored, frustrated, and pissed off that the back door cut eventually came open out of resignation. Youngsters here thankfully never got to watch that. Each offensive set, if you can call it that, was a war of attrition. Good riddance.
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Re: I have found it

Post by krewe of ham and eggs »

PeteRasche wrote:
MattK wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.


Didn’t we run the modern version of the four corners under Conroy? Hold the ball til the shot clock expires and heave a desperation shot?

Smith's version included cuts that resulted in easy scores. Conroy's version.... notsomuch.

yeah but Conroy's version involved ice cream
AnY iMaGeS yOu PoRtRaY wIlL bE rEpReSeNtAtIvE oF tHe TeAm YoU sUpPoRt

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Re: I have found it

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Could you make a case that the Posse from the 90s was that different style - run five fresh guys out there 4-5 minutes in and play at a much different tempo than the starters?

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Re: I have found it

Post by ml wave »

krewe of ham and eggs wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
MattK wrote:
PeteRasche wrote:
TUPF wrote:Please, God, never ever go back to anything like the Dean Smith Four Corners. My girlfriend and later starter wife was going to UNC Chapel Hill at the time and I got co-opted to attend a few games there. The Tar Heel fans loved it but I rather would have removed my own gall bladder with a fork than watch.

Don't worry, the shot clock isn't getting longer any time. It keeps moving the other way. Smith's system was pre-shot clock. It can't be done today.


Didn’t we run the modern version of the four corners under Conroy? Hold the ball til the shot clock expires and heave a desperation shot?

Smith's version included cuts that resulted in easy scores. Conroy's version.... notsomuch.

yeah but Conroy's version involved ice cream

But only rarely...

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Re: I have found it

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occasionally wrote:Could you make a case that the Posse from the 90s was that different style - run five fresh guys out there 4-5 minutes in and play at a much different tempo than the starters?

Absolutely. That's why it worked the first time we played teams much better than the second.

It also goes without saying that film availability today makes it harder to surprise opponents with something you use "as a surprise" every single game, even compared to when this article was written a decade ago. The main focus of the story - a 12-year-old girls team - obviously had no concerns about opponents seeing their film. Colleges likely had little or no film in the early 70s when Fordham upset UMass as mentioned. There were possibly grainy VHS tapes passed around back in the mid 1980s when Pitino used full court pressure at Providence (fun fact for the younger folks who don't remember: the arguably-best player on that Providence team was a scrappy gym rat named Billy Donovan). So whatever element of surprise an underdog is going to use against a huge favorite, it better be something that even the underdog has not done (at least "much"?) prior.

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Re: I have found it

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Fight southpaw. “Cut me Mick!” :lol:
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