Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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DCGreenie
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Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

Your opinions, please. Most of you are a lot more knowledgeable than I am, but I would appreciate your views about the fairly rapid changes in college football.
Leaving aside the additional encumbrances this season of Covid-19 lost playing time and many players, and the usual unfortunate injuries, I am concerned about the increased semi-professionalization of college football by the twin impacts of student-athletes leaving their teams during the season, as well as before bowl games, either to enter the transfer portal (don't shade your eyes -- euphemize... the NCAA has created a college player "free agent" system) or to opt out for the forthcoming NFL draft.
With the additional backdrop of potential compensation systems for college players that may go beyond just scholarships, this bothers me a lot. For some players, it fosters an atmosphere of college football as if it is a bush or minor league that some players participate in until the transfer portal is triggered or the NFL draft is possible.
Team solidarity? Team dedication? Team spirit? It seems to me that all are being quickly eroded. We already know the numerous indictments over the years of football, in particular, as an exploitative revenue sport for many colleges. The current atmosphere that I have just summarized strikes me as erosive of player fealty to their teammates and their colleges.
What do you think?
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tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

I think a lot of what has been going on behind the scenes for decades in black market fashion is being brought out in the light and codified. Players have been getting compensated in addition to scholarships under the table for a long time. Now they and others are realizing that as college football has become more and more flush with cash, the players are being compensated less and less relative to the overall pie. That's driving a lot of these changes.

I'll give you a couple of more detailed examples. Players sign with a school, which under old rules locks them into playing at that school unless they want to take the transfer penalty of sitting out a year. So last year a whole bunch of players signed to play for Mark Dantonio at Michigan St. and Mel Tucker at Colorado. Then, only a few weeks after the early signing period, Dantonio retires and MSU hires Tucker. So now a bunch of players that thought they were going to be developed by and playing for a certain staff are stuck with a new coach that may or may not value them like the old coach. The coaches are getting paid millions of dollars and leave when they want so they have tons of autonomy. Yet the players who are ostensibly only getting compensated with education and a few perks get shafted. Some of them might be losing out on huge paydays in the NFL because the coach who recruited them left them high and dry.

In another prominent example, LSU recently purchased sleep pods in a massive, multi-million dollar renovation to their football facilities. They are far from alone in this kind of extravagance. But the reason they do this has everything to do with balancing the books; attracting recruits is important too, but really secondary since all the elite football schools have great facilities. By spending money on capital expenditures (and contributing to academic funds, administrator pay, etc.), LSU and others can claim their athletic departments are revenue neutral. They rake in millions of dollars every year in TV revenue alone, yet they spend that money on sleep pods and paying Bo Pelini to be a terrible DC so they don't have to upset the apple cart by giving players some kind of compensation beyond a scholarship.

I used to share your view about college sports in general, but I've become pretty jaded when it comes to football (and maybe men's basketball too). I don't think there's ever really been the level of amateurism we'd all like to think going back to the early origins of the sport. There were cheating scandals in the 1900s and that has continued into the present day. In my opinion the players are typically the ones that get the short end of the stick and I'm ok with many of these policies that give them more agency even if it does change what I'd like my perception of the sport to be. Long term maybe there will be a true minor leagues for football and colleges will go to a true amateur format, but I'd have to say at this point the idea of marrying academic institutions with a semi-professional sports setup is a pretty odd pairing.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by TUPF »

I think your observations are spot on. We are seeing the inevitable progression to where we are now much like when free agency in baseball became a reality after court fights. I do however think there's something askew when coach salaries are in seven figures on the way to eight, while the young men who make those coaching positions possible are scraping for meal money if it's done above board. I used to believe 'hey, you are getting a six figure education if you apply yourself' was enough but the inequities are pretty glaring now.

Maybe college football never was a Leave it to Beaver 1950s set up and I'm just fooling myself. I don't believe there ever was "fealty" as you said but things do change. When money, and big money it is, doused everything the inequities are just too great for things to remain as it was.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

This conversation reminds me of the stadium conversation. People only wanted to talk about the revenue side of the ledger. The NCAA requires schools to have a minimum of 16 sports. At 99% of schools only football and men’s basketball make money. So at the end of the day they lose money. I’d also point out to those that want players that get paid that we'll be paying much higher prices to watch our team.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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"I do however think there's something askew when coach salaries are in seven figures on the way to eight, while the young men who make those coaching positions possible are scraping for meal money if it's done above board." This is a baseline observation that stared me right in the face, but I didn't see it: The coaches are getting beaucoup shekels, but many of the players come from disadvantaged backgrounds and almost none will get into the NFL, but they see the coaches and most of the upper level staff prosper whereas, in contrast, they sometimes get scholarships (and sometimes not) as the only financial boost for them. For many (most?) of them, without FB, they wouldn't be able to afford Tulane tuition, much less the tuition hit that lots of other colleges charge. When I went to Tulane (no, I was never an athlete) as a townie, the entry tuition was $600 a semester. We didn't have $600. Fortunately, I got a 100% scholarship for tuition and fees. Imagine even some in-state public U.s that charge "only" $10k a year -- but many of these kids have families that can't even afford $1k a year.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wave97 »

1) Federal exemption of Title IX regulation for 85 football scholarships
Eliminate the 10,000 pound elephant in the room that is destroying athletic departments nation wide.
2) Fully redeemable and transferable tuition vouchers.
Players would "represent" the school as athletes while having the option to attend classes after their football/basketball/hockey/baseball eligibility has ended. If they choose to play for a school with very high tuition, sell your vouchers, buy a home and attend a state university after your playing days are over.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by windywave »

TUPF wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:07 pm I think your observations are spot on. We are seeing the inevitable progression to where we are now much like when free agency in baseball became a reality after court fights. I do however think there's something askew when coach salaries are in seven figures on the way to eight, while the young men who make those coaching positions possible are scraping for meal money if it's done above board. I used to believe 'hey, you are getting a six figure education if you apply yourself' was enough but the inequities are pretty glaring now.

Maybe college football never was a Leave it to Beaver 1950s set up and I'm just fooling myself. I don't believe there ever was "fealty" as you said but things do change. When money, and big money it is, doused everything the inequities are just too great for things to remain as it was.
If you start paying players the athletics program loses its tax exempt status which means it would have to be spun off from the university. That would literally kill every atheltics program in the country. Immediate payroll expense plus loss of subsidies from the university and loss of donations.

Personally I'd like all of the television revenue to be shared equally for every D1 school.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Wandering Quaker »

There is another answer: let the NFL or some entrepreneurial group build a true farm system for football. Players who really aren't interested in attempting to juggle a course of study along with the ever increasing demands for their time and attention to football and weight/fitness training won't do it. They'll go to farm clubs and roll the dice on that vocational pathway. It's hard for me to imagine this would be worse for the kids than the result for so many of them now: a degree from a lesser institution that prepares them for nothing, or no degree from anywhere at all.

Meanwhile, this would shift a lot of the television dollars to the farm club games, which would then draw the top-dollar coaches to the new system, decreasing or eliminating the upward pressure on college coaching salaries (and facility development). This reduced financial incentive to invest in expensive limited-use facilities could also help keep college prices down (there are lots of other changes needed to effect that result, too, and they have nothing to do with football).
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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windywave wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:05 am
TUPF wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:07 pm I think your observations are spot on. We are seeing the inevitable progression to where we are now much like when free agency in baseball became a reality after court fights. I do however think there's something askew when coach salaries are in seven figures on the way to eight, while the young men who make those coaching positions possible are scraping for meal money if it's done above board. I used to believe 'hey, you are getting a six figure education if you apply yourself' was enough but the inequities are pretty glaring now.

Maybe college football never was a Leave it to Beaver 1950s set up and I'm just fooling myself. I don't believe there ever was "fealty" as you said but things do change. When money, and big money it is, doused everything the inequities are just too great for things to remain as it was.
If you start paying players the athletics program loses its tax exempt status which means it would have to be spun off from the university. That would literally kill every atheltics program in the country. Immediate payroll expense plus loss of subsidies from the university and loss of donations.

Personally I'd like all of the television revenue to be shared equally for every D1 school.
I don't know what I'm saying. Just that when players see coaches with mutimillion dollar salaries move around with no consequences and all but a couple percent of D1 players have no shot at that kind of money, it's really out of balance. I like your TV revenue sharing idea and I don't hate Wandering Quaker's idea but both would be fought tooth and nail by folks who like things just the way they are.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

The players don't appear to see it as out of balance as the good ones all want to play for those very highly paid coaches.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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98.4% of college football players will not play professional football. Better have a backup plan.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/res ... -athletics
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

I really like wandering quakers idea and have long that thats the better equilibrium point. NFL is the only major sports league without a true minor league system and they definitely have the money to support one. Theres some concern the quality of play would go down, but it really hasn't killed off college baseball which has a similar system. Enter MiLB out of high school or go to college and play there. Same thing could work for pro football.

There are a lot of status quo folks making a lot of money that don't want this kind of change though. And meanwhile the players do flock to the best programs (because they get players paid, both in college and in the pros), but they also have every incentive to be supportive of movements that grant them more agency and more above board funding whether that is NIL money or a straight up paycheck
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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TUPF wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:27 pm 98.4% of college football players will not play professional football. Better have a backup plan.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/res ... -athletics
Everyone knows the stat. Everyone also knows that 99% think they are going to go pro in their sport. That's never going to change.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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"There is another answer: let the NFL or some entrepreneurial group build a true farm system for football. Players who really aren't interested in attempting to juggle a course of study along with the ever increasing demands for their time and attention to football and weight/fitness training won't do it."

But the reality now is that schools continue to cheapen courses of study for good players who otherwise could not be admitted to the better schools. Just run down the declared majors on the Tulane FB web site -- we have substantially cheapened a Tulane degree to get FB players into Tulane. I esp. love the candy-colored aliases for Physical Education majors masquerading as academic programs: Sport Studies; Health & Wellness; Exercise Science (some schools call this Kinesiology -- use Greek to dress it up.....). A very small minority of players are declaring liberal arts or science majors. Who are we kidding? These are the kinds of majors we use to deride that were declared by the football denizens of the up river Outhouse on the Mississippi. These majors literally create a second-tier student population crafted for sports participation. You want a stronger football program? If you can't beat 'em, join 'em...... A farm system for allegedly college athletes is basically the end. Right now, college football programs are shot through with hypocrisy. The farm system is almost harkening back to the 20s and teens when colleges actually hired and paid players who didn't even matriculate.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Cheerleader »

I spent some time as a GM of a professional basketball team in the Continental Basketball Association. I have some experience dealing with the idea of having a "farm" system. The NBA was using the colleges for that for free and we always wanted the NBA to use the CBA as a farm system, so that they would pay for the salaries of the players. We had a deal with them that they could call up our players at anytime, and pay us a small stipend and they paid for the referees, but that was all. They were not interested in paying salaries and the players' union was not interested, because it was their position that anyone who was not signed to an NBA contract was a free agent to give players multiple options. The NBA later created the D league to try to lock up players who were not ready for the NBA. I am not up to date on how that is working for them, the union or the players.

Baseball learned the expense of farm clubs, so they used the covid excuse to eliminate a lot of teams so they wouldn't have to pay for them. Over the years, they are also using the colleges more as a free farm system more and more. So, I think you can forget the NFL creating a farm system. They don't want to pay for it, especially when the colleges are doing that. We all know that there are a lot of good football players who are not college material for various reasons. Several leagues have been created over the years to try to address that issue, but really none of them have been successful.

I don't know what the answer is, but some of the ideas I have read here are interesting, especially the tuition one. If getting a scholarship to Tulane is $50,000 per year more valuable than one to LSU, and the player can monetize that some way, then we get to be a national power pretty quickly.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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Wandering Quaker wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:36 am There is another answer: let the NFL or some entrepreneurial group build a true farm system for football. Players who really aren't interested in attempting to juggle a course of study along with the ever increasing demands for their time and attention to football and weight/fitness training won't do it. They'll go to farm clubs and roll the dice on that vocational pathway. It's hard for me to imagine this would be worse for the kids than the result for so many of them now: a degree from a lesser institution that prepares them for nothing, or no degree from anywhere at all.

Meanwhile, this would shift a lot of the television dollars to the farm club games, which would then draw the top-dollar coaches to the new system, decreasing or eliminating the upward pressure on college coaching salaries (and facility development). This reduced financial incentive to invest in expensive limited-use facilities could also help keep college prices down (there are lots of other changes needed to effect that result, too, and they have nothing to do with football).
The Scott Cowen view of college football. In this particular case, I didn't think he was wrong. Problem is, even though 98% know they will not make the pros, they still want the CHANCE to try. And to play against the best is the only way to prove themselves. So they will go to the semi-pro league, which is what it will be.

Let me go you one further--do you pay your starting OG the same as your QB? Better yet, your three-year returning senior OG vs a promising freshman QB? If the promising freshman QB, who doesn't play, threatens to go into the portal so as to get more money? I mean, the money angle puts a whole new set of circumstances to consider. So now, are we back to a collegiate players' union, where salaries are set? Frankly, it gets pretty ugly from here. The devil is always in the details. Hell, they cannot even figure out a simple playoff system, much less something this potentially complex.

My advice to a kid is always to go to the school where you want to go, where you think you can play, not necessarily to a coach, because they can leave you high-and-dry. At this point, there are no pretty answers.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

"Let me go you one further--do you pay your starting OG the same as your QB? Better yet, your three-year returning senior OG vs a promising freshman QB? If the promising freshman QB, who doesn't play, threatens to go into the portal so as to get more money? I mean, the money angle puts a whole new set of circumstances to consider. So now, are we back to a collegiate players' union, where salaries are set? Frankly, it gets pretty ugly from here. The devil is always in the details. Hell, they cannot even figure out a simple playoff system, much less something this potentially complex."

Another instructive, speculative variant of how college FB is accelerating its descent of a slippery slope.

Sidebar: D'Eriq King says he will return to Miami next year after four years at Houston (one year redshirt) and two years at Miami (if it happens). He played several games before Tulane beat Houston with the ultimate trickeration play nearly at the end of regulation, so in effect he will have played almost 6 seasons. (And what is he after, as a gratuitous Q -- who want a 5'9" QB?)
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by ml wave »

windywave wrote: Sat Dec 26, 2020 11:05 am
TUPF wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:07 pm I think your observations are spot on. We are seeing the inevitable progression to where we are now much like when free agency in baseball became a reality after court fights. I do however think there's something askew when coach salaries are in seven figures on the way to eight, while the young men who make those coaching positions possible are scraping for meal money if it's done above board. I used to believe 'hey, you are getting a six figure education if you apply yourself' was enough but the inequities are pretty glaring now.

Maybe college football never was a Leave it to Beaver 1950s set up and I'm just fooling myself. I don't believe there ever was "fealty" as you said but things do change. When money, and big money it is, doused everything the inequities are just too great for things to remain as it was.
If you start paying players the athletics program loses its tax exempt status which means it would have to be spun off from the university. That would literally kill every atheltics program in the country. Immediate payroll expense plus loss of subsidies from the university and loss of donations.

Personally I'd like all of the television revenue to be shared equally for every D1 school.
Players are already legitimately compensated above and beyond their scholarships and that didn't seem to change tax exempt status. Further, other university employees are (well) compensated and donations to the university are tax exempt. Setting aside the fact that what you describe is a total non-starter politically, why do you think this would be any different?
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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Some bowl games these past few days confirmed my dismay over college football. I saw players on teams already decimated by Covid and injuries not only declare prior to a bowl game that they would not participate because of the NFL draft, but precipitously (as it appeared) decide that they would play the first half of the bowl game, but not the second half. Lots of players are openly abandoning their already compromised teams in bowl games. It is so sad and discouraging to see this. The transfer portal starting two years ago has let the genie our of the bottle. The NFL draft is alone undermining team solidarity at scores of schools.
As I said before, along with potential student player compensation beyond scholarships, college FB is rapidly sliding down a slippery slope.....
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

I would argue it's far more sad to expect players to put their health on the line without commensurate compensation. Sure they get a scholarship, but most of the ones sitting have legitimate professional hopes. All it takes is playing in one more game to tear an ACL (ahem, D'Eriq King) and all those potential millions go down the drain. I don't think their coaches or teammates feel let let down either. Coaches know they guys sitting can make the pros which they can use to recruit more good talent. And the other players know that if they were in the same boat, they'd be sitting as well. It's a business, whether we want it to be or not.

Somebody posited the other day that with NIL legislation coming, bowls could pony up appearance fees for players to participate in these games. The big wigs at some of these bowls already get all kinds of money. Makes sense to me the players should get a cut.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

tulaneoutlaw wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:17 pm I would argue it's far more sad to expect players to put their health on the line without commensurate compensation. Sure they get a scholarship, but most of the ones sitting have legitimate professional hopes. All it takes is playing in one more game to tear an ACL (ahem, D'Eriq King) and all those potential millions go down the drain. I don't think their coaches or teammates feel let let down either. Coaches know they guys sitting can make the pros which they can use to recruit more good talent. And the other players know that if they were in the same boat, they'd be sitting as well. It's a business, whether we want it to be or not.

Somebody posited the other day that with NIL legislation coming, bowls could pony up appearance fees for players to participate in these games. The big wigs at some of these bowls already get all kinds of money. Makes sense to me the players should get a cut.
I actually agree, paradoxically. with your argument. I think that college FB with regard to college administration exploitation, injuries, and rank money-motivated iplayer individualism is now beyond the pale and cannot be redeemed in any way that would not further discourage me. We can't go back to the future -- an era came to an end quite a while ago. You must be aware of the numerous books over the last 10-15 years documenting the baseline cynicism driving college FB. Schools that were not considered serious for FB potential have gotten on the bandwagon fundamentally to make more sports revenue with the added benefit of more publicity for more paying students, e.g., Coastal Carolina (take a look at the curriculum catalogue.....), Liberty U., others going from FCS to FBS (e.g., North Dakota and (??am I right) and N.D. State).
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Roller »

I think the primary compensation for a college athlete is simply the opportunity to play at that level in a game they love. It's not about money, beyond the fact that they can get an education that many could never hope to afford. Many of us would have paid dearly for the opportunity to participate, so just the fact of making the team is a very valuable compensation.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by ml wave »

Roller wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:25 pm I think the primary compensation for a college athlete is simply the opportunity to play at that level in a game they love. It's not about money, beyond the fact that they can get an education that many could never hope to afford. Many of us would have paid dearly for the opportunity to participate, so just the fact of making the team is a very valuable compensation.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by PeteRasche »

Roller wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:25 pm I think the primary compensation for a college athlete is simply the opportunity to play at that level in a game they love. It's not about money, beyond the fact that they can get an education that many could never hope to afford. Many of us would have paid dearly for the opportunity to participate, so just the fact of making the team is a very valuable compensation.
There was a time when that was probably the feelings of most (including me). That time has passed. Student-athletes have seen the amount of money being made by everyone involved and not a cent of it coming to them, and the toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.

In my day I'd have been excited to have been in a video game and rather than demanding money I'd have been first in line to buy a copy. Today if a player is in a video game their first thought is "pay me for it".
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tkruebbe »

I agree with Pete 100 %. :mrgreen:
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