Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

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wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:59 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:19 pm
ml wave wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
No one forces colleges to have football teams either.
Great response.
No one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
No one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.
We still aren't there!
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tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

Mods just lock this. Nobody is changing their opinion clearly and we have started with the name calling again.
Johnny4
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Johnny4 »

wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm
Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
Maurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html

Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Different times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.
I agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Johnny4 »

Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:43 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm
Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
Maurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html

Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Different times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.
I agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.
I misspoke.. the XFL does NOT have a three year waiting period. So young players will have an opportunity to choose college or pro (as long as the league exists).
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:43 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm
Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
Maurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html

Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Different times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.
I agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.
We agree about Clarett. As to the suit different times and they can take a different tact to try again.
We still aren't there!
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:47 pm
Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:43 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm
Johnny4 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
Maurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).

https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html

Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Different times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.
I agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.
I misspoke.. the XFL does NOT have a three year waiting period. So young players will have an opportunity to choose college or pro (as long as the league exists).
Problem is when they shut down I believe they said they were closing for good.
We still aren't there!
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DCGreenie
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:12 pm
DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:59 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:19 pm
ml wave wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
No one forces colleges to have football teams either.
Great response.
No one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
No one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.
Yes, they choose their majors -- in most instances the path of least resistance for time/effort spent on the classroom and in many cases in order to avoid demanding majors that would have them flunk out. The end result is little skills that are saleable for any kind of profession.
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

Says you. They are new enough that we don't have results on them to know what they lead to. But good to know you want to go back to the days where we couldn't get athletes in that could be competitive. Boy those were the days.
We still aren't there!
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by ml wave »

DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:59 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:12 pm
DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:59 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:19 pm
ml wave wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
No one forces colleges to have football teams either.
Great response.
No one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
No one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.
Yes, they choose their majors -- in most instances the path of least resistance for time/effort spent on the classroom and in many cases in order to avoid demanding majors that would have them flunk out. The end result is little skills that are saleable for any kind of profession.
Not Tulane specifically, but there's plenty of stories out there about CFB players who were pushed by their coaches into easier/more convenient majors so it wouldn't interfere with football.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by ml wave »

wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:01 pm
ml wave wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:45 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:19 pm
ml wave wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
No one forces colleges to have football teams either.
Great response.
Lol, it's literally your argument.
I was being sarcastic.
If I start compiling a list of things you don't understand, I'll be sure to add "use of sarcasm" right after "basic understanding of economics."
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DCGreenie
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:24 pm Says you. They are new enough that we don't have results on them to know what they lead to. But good to know you want to go back to the days where we couldn't get athletes in that could be competitive. Boy those were the days.
We can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

ml wave wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:38 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:01 pm
ml wave wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:45 am
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:19 pm
ml wave wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 4:22 pm
wavedom wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm They are handsomely compensated. No one is being taken advantage of. No one forces them to play college ball. They want to be paid even more then sue the NFL for entry at the conclusion of HS.
No one forces colleges to have football teams either.
Great response.
Lol, it's literally your argument.
I was being sarcastic.
If I start compiling a list of things you don't understand, I'll be sure to add "use of sarcasm" right after "basic understanding of economics."
You clearly don't understand either so I'll consider the source.
We still aren't there!
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:23 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:24 pm Says you. They are new enough that we don't have results on them to know what they lead to. But good to know you want to go back to the days where we couldn't get athletes in that could be competitive. Boy those were the days.
We can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
In the 60's we had a PE degree. Try again. They aren't being utilized for revenue production. Tulane loses a lot of money every year on athletics. They are blessed that the university cares enough to support them through school.
We still aren't there!
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DCGreenie
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by DCGreenie »

wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:05 pm
DCGreenie wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:23 pm
wavedom wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:24 pm Says you. They are new enough that we don't have results on them to know what they lead to. But good to know you want to go back to the days where we couldn't get athletes in that could be competitive. Boy those were the days.
We can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
In the 60's we had a PE degree. Try again. They aren't being utilized for revenue production. Tulane loses a lot of money every year on athletics. They are blessed that the university cares enough to support them through school.
You are right. Your affirmative view of the situation has made the scales fall from my eyes I retract all my previous arguments. Thank you.
wavedom
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

You're quite welcome.
We still aren't there!
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Luvs da Wave
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Luvs da Wave »

I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
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PeteRasche
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by PeteRasche »

Luvs da Wave wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
Took you until now to figure that out? :lol:
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by ml wave »

Luvs da Wave wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
Well, this involves adults in positions of (outsized) power often taking advantage of kids...not exactly an even playing field.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by wavedom »

The system has been around for over 100 years no one is being taken advantage of. Everyone knows what they are getting into .
We still aren't there!
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tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

I think Mark Emmert inhabits this board.
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Poseidon »

ml wave wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 2:48 pm
Luvs da Wave wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
Well, this involves adults in positions of (outsized) power often taking advantage of kids...not exactly an even playing field.
I have kids. They are aged 1, 3, and 5. They cant take student loans or join the military or co to college.

18-22 year olds are not kids. The "kids" labeling is just dishonest(not attacking you ML, you are far from the only person to ever use that term). I have probably said it on ocasion as well.

If we really want to be paternalistic(in caring way) then arguing for anyone people see as "kids" to get windfalls of thousands of dollars of cash is probably no the best thing.
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tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by tulaneoutlaw »

Well for one thing, the young men playing in college are pretty much all approached by college coaches while they are still kids. You start getting recruited at 16 and 17 in most places. So while I get your point on them being legally adults, that's not really where the conversation starts.

More importantly, why does the NCAA not treat them as adults? Why do they have all these rules in place to "protect" the players when really it costs them money that in a less regulated market would be there for them to earn? The NCAA's paternalistic rules are what leads to them being branded "kids".
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....

Post by Poseidon »

tulaneoutlaw wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:47 pm Well for one thing, the young men playing in college are pretty much all approached by college coaches while they are still kids. You start getting recruited at 16 and 17 in most places. So while I get your point on them being legally adults, that's not really where the conversation starts.

More importantly, why does the NCAA not treat them as adults? Why do they have all these rules in place to "protect" the players when really it costs them money that in a less regulated market would be there for them to earn? The NCAA's paternalistic rules are what leads to them being branded "kids".
The your right the NCAA does treat them like kids, unless it has to do wtih title ix then they are not kids again. They are all over the place. A lot of this comes from universities as a while that have catereed to overprotective and even helicopter parents. Now as opposed to 30 years ago and before when parents go with the kids to see schools the parents arent asking about acedemics they are asking about how security, how is the university going to provide food, comfort etc to their children. Universities are no longer a place to test boundaries and experience indedendance and the hard sknocks that come with it. What does this have to do with football? The paternalism comes from multiple places, but it doesnt make it right nor does it make them kids just becauee they are treated as such.
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