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 Post subject: Division alignment
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:20 am 
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This will be an ongoing discussion.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/writer/jon-solomon/24569993/american-athletic-conference-considers-division-alignment


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 11:43 am 
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I really hope the NCAA continues to require divisions for a championship game. Without them, a championship game is silly.

How to break up the AAC has been an ongoing question on boards everywhere for quite some time. Hopefully we'll start to get more answers next week. It sounds like we already have one----they are talking East/West (not North/South)

Personally, I'd go:
Tulane
SMU
Houston
Cincinnati
Tulsa
Memphis

UCF
Temple
UConn
ECU
Navy
USF


But I also think splitting up UCF/USF might not be a bad idea (so long as we do a 5/2/1 and they play as rivals)

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 2:06 pm 
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WaveProf wrote:

Tulane
SMU
Houston
Cincinnati
Tulsa
Memphis

UCF
Temple
UConn
ECU
Navy
USF


I favor East/West also because of the geographical clustering. I favor 5-3. If the AAC decides on 5-2-1 I would like to see our 1 be Navy because we've been playing Navy off and on since the '70s, when I was in school. I don't think we have a lengthy tradition with any of the other schools, except ECU, which would be my second choice. Academically, I think we're much more closely aligned with Navy, so I think they're a better fit.

There's a lengthy discussion on this topic on that other BBS.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 12:28 pm 
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UC's perspective on all of this:

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2014/05/27/bearcats-aac-divisions/9650565/

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 1:59 pm 
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Would SMU be a logical rival (to be cultivated more) for us in the 5-2-1 format? I figure geographically at least, given that the two Florida schools seem to be naturals that it would be SMU or maybe Tulsa for us.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 7:22 pm 
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IMO the obvious alignment would be:

Division A:
- Cincy
- ECU
- Navy
- Temple
- UCF
- UConn

Division B
- Houston
- Memphis
- SMU
- Tulane
- Tulsa
- USF

The southwest teams are an obvious match, as are the northeast teams. The Florida teams are outliers that have equal flight times to the west or north. Thus, split the Florida teams and give them a permanent cross rivalry game. Every team in the conference gets a trip to Florida once every two years or so. I kept USF along the gulf with Tulane and Houston. I would have the USF-UCF game as the only cross rivalry game (see IU-Purdue in the B1G). There are no other rivalries in the conference so I wouldn't force anything cross division.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 9:49 pm 
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Quote:
Proposals from the coaches on the division splits will be presented to the athletic directors and university presidents Friday. The divisions will be announced no later than late July.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/c ... 7306.story


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:30 am 
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Navy likely in the west? That's interesting. Makes sense since travel isn't expensive for them. That tells me Cincy wants in the east.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:36 am 
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WaveProf wrote:
Navy likely in the west? That's interesting. Makes sense since travel isn't expensive for them. That tells me Cincy wants in the east.


How is travel not expensive for them? Not like they're hopping a MAC flight and crashing at the local barracks. They fly commercial and stay in hotels just like us.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:38 am 
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From a Navy football alum:

Quote:
The Navy football team uses reserve aircraft training time when available and commercial charters when they have to.



I don't know if that is still true.

I do know they send members of the corps (often including the band) via military flight.

Heck, when I was in college, the VMI band got flown to Disney World via military flight. Good use of military budget? Probably not. But no one batted an eye.



Regardless, even if they do fly commercial nowadays, it still makes some sense. Navy recruits nationally more than regionally, and Texas is a state that a lot of their players come from (look at their roster).

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:04 am 
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prof, I think you hit the nail on the head- its all about Cincy wanting to be in the East (especially for basketball). Everyone else has to accommodate them.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:06 am 
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GreenieBacker wrote:
prof, I think you hit the nail on the head- its all about Cincy wanting to be in the East (especially for basketball). Everyone else has to accommodate them.

Yup.

Read how many times people have mentioned "eastern standard time". Yes, Cincy is EST, but geographically I'd align it with the west. And I don't think time zone really matters when we are talking one hour. But they've made the rhetoric all about time zones cause, well, they really want to be "East"

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:06 am 
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WaveProf wrote:
F...Good use of military budget? Probably not. But no one batted an eye...
The pilots have to get a certain amount of flying time in order to keep their qualifications current. Generally, the military flights of this nature are considered "pilot training." So if they can kill two birds with one stone, by ferrying other assets to places where they want them to be, it makes a little bit of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:09 am 
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Roller wrote:
The pilots have to get a certain amount of flying time in order to keep their qualifications current. Generally, the military flights of this nature are considered "pilot training." So if they can kill two birds with one stone, by ferrying other assets to places where they want them to be, it makes a little bit of sense.


Hey, I enjoyed going to the beach. And Disney was ok. Especially when we buzzed it at a relatively low altitude. I'm not complaining!

If we really want to talk about military waste, I was more shocked by the master sergeant who, whenever we got live ammo for M16s or M60s, would have us empty them at the end of the training on full auto because "it's too much paper work to put the ammo back into storage, use it up boys!"

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:09 am 
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GreenieBacker wrote:
prof, I think you hit the nail on the head- its all about Cincy wanting to be in the East (especially for basketball). Everyone else has to accommodate them.


We'll still be 11 in basketball, so there would be no divisions. Even if expanded, it's been the norm lately to not go the divisional route in basketball. The SEC was, I believe, the last power conference to use divisions in basketball and they did away with it a couple of years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:20 am 
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Also, I think I agree with akhosrof's divisions. There really are two logical groups of 5 with the Florida schools as outliers. There seems to be outliers or a boundary state in every conference that leads to "rivals" being split or some contortion to avoid the split (I see you Missouri in the SEC East). For the AAC it's UCF and USF. Obviously, a 5-2-1 easily solves the problem, even if it's only for UCF and USF. The Big Ten did this when they split Indiana and Purdue. I guess the only hangup is that removing one inter-divisional matchup a year for each school reduces the number of visits to Florida for the rest of the conference. However, with the trade-off being that one whole division would travel to Florida much less often, I think that's something that could make for a good compromise.

I don't see this as Cincy throwing their weight around to stay in the East. Being in the East makes much more sense for them then a division with any number of Houston, Tulane, Tulsa and SMU. It is less travel for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:22 am 
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WaveProf wrote:
...If we really want to talk about military waste, I was more shocked by the master sergeant who, whenever we got live ammo for M16s or M60s, would have us empty them at the end of the training on full auto because "it's too much paper work to put the ammo back into storage, use it up boys!"
Yeah, that is de rigueur for military training. We did the same in the SeaBees--but it wasn't because of paperwork... It was so that we could more easily check the guys as they got onto the bus, to insure that nobody was "conserving" ammo during the field exercise, so that they could smuggle it home afterwards. But there is some truth to the "paperwork" excuse. For expedience, the ammo is "pre-expended," so that they can issue it without having to make the soldiers sign for each bullet. Since there is no record of where it went once it is expended, it becomes an even more onerous exercise for the armorers to recapture it into the inventory, especially considering how much it would get blown out of proportion if a single cartridge were missing when the accountants went through the books.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:30 am 
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'03 I just want this conference to do all it can to develop and nourish some rivalries. I know that developing a rivalry is a somewhat organic process but whenever something begins to bloom............help it grow.

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:47 am 
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GreenieBacker wrote:
'03 I just want this conference to do all it can to develop and nourish some rivalries. I know that developing a rivalry is a somewhat organic process but whenever something begins to bloom............help it grow.


I'm on board with that. But, until the NCAA says differently, divisions are a necessity for a conference championship game. And, with few, if any actual rivalries outside of UCF/USF (?), going geographical is the best way to develop rivalries. The two groups of 5 and splitting the Florida schools makes the most sense, with Prof's grouping being a reasonably close second. The problem with Prof's division is that for us, Cincy and Memphis, that only gets you into Florida once every 4 years (assuming no 5-2-1, otherwise it could be once every 6 years). Some of that is mitigated by getting to Texas every year, but Cincy at least would prefer to play in Florida at least once every other year.

I don't think Cincy really cares who the other 4 schools are in their division, but having a Florida school in the division is vital to their success. And really, developing rivalries is nice, but the absolute best way to develop the league is to have good players. The best way to do that is probably to make sure that everyone gets to Florida every other year and that the schools that rely heavily on Texas recruiting play together with SMU and Houston. Thus, Cincy to the East makes the most sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 10:52 am 
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WaveProf wrote:
Roller wrote:
The pilots have to get a certain amount of flying time in order to keep their qualifications current. Generally, the military flights of this nature are considered "pilot training." So if they can kill two birds with one stone, by ferrying other assets to places where they want them to be, it makes a little bit of sense.


Hey, I enjoyed going to the beach. And Disney was ok. Especially when we buzzed it at a relatively low altitude. I'm not complaining!

If we really want to talk about military waste, I was more shocked by the master sergeant who, whenever we got live ammo for M16s or M60s, would have us empty them at the end of the training on full auto because "it's too much paper work to put the ammo back into storage, use it up boys!"

The local air force base used to fly my high school JROTC unit around as part of their training. Really, the pilots need more flight hours than there are meaningful trips, so it's really not adding anything for them to haul cargo or people to a particular place....


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:13 am 
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I posted this a while back when we were discussing who our "Rival" would be.

--I also think it might be a good idea to get away from the geo splits that we are accustomed to. If you do what WaveProf suggested then our division simply becomes a sub-set of old CUSA and the other is a smaller version of the old BE. You then have long breaks in us seeing UConn and Temple, thus they don't feel like a conference mate as much as another out of conference matchup. If you break up the old "clicks" some then it might actually help the conference establish itself more and make it more cohesive. Cincinnati and Louisville kept getting put together and they were always looking for the next best thing together, and in some ways were always the ones who were constantly destroying whatever conferences they were in.

If you did
Division 1: Cin, Memphis, ECU, Navy, Houston, SMU
Division 2: UConn, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, UCF, USF

By doing this everyone has a "natural" rival with the division (some more made up than others): Cin-Mem, ECU-Navy, Houston-SMU, Uconn-Temple, Tulane-Tulsa, UCF-USF
They would also have a cross rival (some more made up than others): Cin-UConn, Memphis-Temple, ECU-Tulane, Navy-USF, Houston-UCF, SMU-Tulsa
Each division would also have groups in different geo regions: Cin-Memphis (Central area), ECU-Navy (Atlantic), Houston-SMU ("West"), Uconn-Temple (North), Tulane-Tulsa (Central or "West"), and UCF-USF (Atlantic or South). This would spread everyone out and would in theory help you more in recruiting as it would give you more exposure to other areas than simply grouping all the Eastern schools together.--



With the belief that they are going to split up the Florida schools and go the 5-2-1 route I would like something like this:
Division 1: UCF, SMU, Tulsa, UConn, Cincinnati, Navy
Division 2: USF, Houston, Tulane, Temple, Memphis, and ECU

Divisional “rivals” would be: SMU-Tulsa, UConn-Cin, UCF-Navy (forced rival), Temple-Memphis, Tulane-Houston, and USF-ECU (forced) [or Memphis-Tulane, Houston-ECU, USF-Temple (forced)]
Cross rivals are UCF-USF, SMU-Houston, Tulsa-Tulane, UConn-Temple, Cincinnati-Memphis, and Navy-ECU (forced).
It breaks up the BE and CUSA schools more (Div 1 is 3/3, Div 2 is 2/4 {putting Temple and Navy in as BE schools}). This splits up not only the Florida schools but also the Texas schools- the two biggest recruiting hot beds. It also adds some geo diversity to each division, UCF-Navy (East), SMU-Tulsa (West), UConn-Cin (North), USF-ECU (East), Houston-Tulane (West), Temple-Memphis (Got nothing common here). Division 1 has 4 EST schools and 2 CST schools, Division 2 is 3 and 3.
Extra benefit is it puts Cincinnati away from ECU.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:25 am 
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I think the problem with 5-2-1 is that so few rivalries make sense. I really think that UCF and USF are the only schools out there that could look at another member of the conference and say "Yeah, that's our rival" in football. I just don't see it with anyone else. We shouldn't try and force it in divisions, let alone in a 5-2-1 format which leaves schools going 4 years at a time without playing one of the other schools from the division. That is no way to "feel like a conference."

When it comes to divisional alignment, I'm a big fan of the KISS method. Limit the number of "yeah, but"s that can be said and you have the best system you can have.


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:04 pm 
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'03, i don't know that you are necessarily wrong about rivals, but Aresco and the AAC AD's have all been pretty consistent for months in implying they want to try to invent rivalries. So it's going to happen in some shape or form

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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:37 pm 
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They're kidding themselves if they think a protected cross-over game is going to create a rivalry. It'll just be one of 6 teams a school faces every year. 5 opponents that you face every year should be sufficient to create rivalries. If it's not going to happen with those 5, then it's just not going to happen.

As an aside, we'll probably have to wait until the next AAC media guide for this information to be readily available in one place, but I'd be interested to see just how many times AAC conference members have played each other. I can't imagine too many are above 30 times. Maybe SMU-Houston? Cincy-Memphis?


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 Post subject: Re: Division alignment
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 12:46 pm 
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we've played Cincy for a longer period of time that most people suspect.

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