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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:24 am 
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So if it's a 1st round pick, where should the Saints go - DL, OL, LB, DB? Is it time for a first round pick at QB - maybe in two years?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Lol, there is zero chance the Saints will get awarded a 1st round pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Is this April 1st?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:33 pm 
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I think it all extremely unlikely; the NFL just wants this to go away and has taken a stance of saying and doing nothing. They're not going to further taint their LA project by admitted wrongdoing so egregious as to merit a first rounder.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:25 pm 
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nothing the NFL can do will fix this.. change the rule, give the Saints a first rounder (yeah right), fire the officiating crew... nothing will fix this.. time to move on

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:40 pm 
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A couple of quick thoughts: When are the refs involved going to become publicly accountable for this? So far it's crickets from NFL poohbahs.

What is Goodell's salary $35 million? I know he has been paid several hundred million since he was named Commissioner.

Meanwhile NFL has perhaps 20-30 full time officials and what, several hundred part-time? (I welcome exactitude here from those who know it.) The latter are folks like us: Bank execs, engineers, teachers, Indian chiefs, whatever during the week and then refs on Sunday making decisions that have financial impact of tens of millions of dollars. (Anyone care to guess what going to the Super Bowl means for the Rams and selling naming rights and tickets to the new stadium opening in 2020?)


NFL is only pro sports league that uses semi-pros for its officiating. You get what you pay for. Why not take $5 million of Goodell's annual salary and use it to hire full time pro reffing staff? Anyone think Goodell or Condi Rice or you name it wouldn't be willing to be NFL Commissioner for just $30 million per annum?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:43 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
A couple of quick thoughts: When are the refs involved going to become publicly accountable for this? So far it's crickets from NFL poohbahs.

What is Goodell's salary $35 million? I know he has been paid several hundred million since he was named Commissioner.

Meanwhile NFL has perhaps 20-30 full time officials and what, several hundred part-time? (I welcome exactitude here from those who know it.) The latter are folks like us: Bank execs, engineers, teachers, Indian chiefs, whatever during the week and then refs on Sunday making decisions that have financial impact of tens of millions of dollars. (Anyone care to guess what going to the Super Bowl means for the Rams and selling naming rights and tickets to the new stadium opening in 2020?)


NFL is only pro sports league that uses semi-pros for its officiating. You get what you pay for. Why not take $5 million of Goodell's annual salary and use it to hire full time pro reffing staff? Anyone think Goodell or Condi Rice or you name it wouldn't be willing to be NFL Commissioner for just $30 million per annum?


Hey, I would be happy to do it for only $25 million a year; save them even more money! :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:29 pm 
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let me add that the rumors I mentioned were being discussed on a national radio sports show not on some local station. And I don't subscribe to any of them but it was interesting to hear the "chatter" that is out there nationally. Oh, and the rumor is that fine for the head shot will be levied this week. So we should soon see if that one is true or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
A couple of quick thoughts: When are the refs involved going to become publicly accountable for this? So far it's crickets from NFL poohbahs.

What is Goodell's salary $35 million? I know he has been paid several hundred million since he was named Commissioner.

Meanwhile NFL has perhaps 20-30 full time officials and what, several hundred part-time? (I welcome exactitude here from those who know it.) The latter are folks like us: Bank execs, engineers, teachers, Indian chiefs, whatever during the week and then refs on Sunday making decisions that have financial impact of tens of millions of dollars. (Anyone care to guess what going to the Super Bowl means for the Rams and selling naming rights and tickets to the new stadium opening in 2020?)


NFL is only pro sports league that uses semi-pros for its officiating. You get what you pay for. Why not take $5 million of Goodell's annual salary and use it to hire full time pro reffing staff? Anyone think Goodell or Condi Rice or you name it wouldn't be willing to be NFL Commissioner for just $30 million per annum?
Being fulltime doesn't stop NBA refs/MLB umps from blowing calls. It's a hard game to officiate, the guy blew the call and that could have happened whether he has 8 other jobs or 0.

The NBA has the ability to review calls via replay in New York (New Jersey?) and communicates to the refs on the court, that's the only real solution I see to prevent this from happening again. Or like college does with booth-initiated replays.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:15 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
A couple of quick thoughts: When are the refs involved going to become publicly accountable for this? So far it's crickets from NFL poohbahs.

What is Goodell's salary $35 million? I know he has been paid several hundred million since he was named Commissioner.

Meanwhile NFL has perhaps 20-30 full time officials and what, several hundred part-time? (I welcome exactitude here from those who know it.) The latter are folks like us: Bank execs, engineers, teachers, Indian chiefs, whatever during the week and then refs on Sunday making decisions that have financial impact of tens of millions of dollars. (Anyone care to guess what going to the Super Bowl means for the Rams and selling naming rights and tickets to the new stadium opening in 2020?)


NFL is only pro sports league that uses semi-pros for its officiating. You get what you pay for. Why not take $5 million of Goodell's annual salary and use it to hire full time pro reffing staff? Anyone think Goodell or Condi Rice or you name it wouldn't be willing to be NFL Commissioner for just $30 million per annum?


Suspending is the easiest thing they could do, but in the end, hardly anyone would care. Suspension is just a step in the process to firing someone, rarely does it change performance, imo.

Is Goodell overpaid? Absolutely, but the "overpaid CEO" argument is as dead as the "they can still reverse this call now" argument. The owners decide what to pay him, have plenty money to do so, and have decided that's his worth. That should have no bearing on what they pay officials or anyone else.

I have never gotten the full time official argument. If you count pre-season, these guys might work 20 games/year and a handful a few more in the playoffs. They might get 5-10 days of training above that, I suppose. So in the extreme case, an NFL official may work 30 days a year. So paying them more so they don't have to work another job will suddenly make them work more on their craft and be better officials? How exactly? How do you officiate live, NFL-caliber games - where everything is 100X faster and more complex, from February until August?

If you want to say pay them incentives tied to their accuracy rate - for what all we know, they may already have - ok, I go for that. But telling them to show up at NFL offices 240 or so days a year will make them better? Come on.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:49 pm 
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As a high school football official we train with film review; take national exams which are open book which serve to make you dive into the rule and case books; and apprentice first at junior levels, then JV, then graduate to varsity games. Of everything we do the thing that makes me better is doing games. Nothing gets you better than actually doing. I officiated in my 30s for three years, and now since my retirement, another two and I learn more every game. I try never to make the same mistake twice and believe me the situations change game to game.

I know it’s not popular with folks wanting to keep the flow of the game but the only way in my mind to make the NFL officiating as close to perfect as can be is to have real time overseers. In the booth, remote from studios, whatever. Calls are blown, officials screw up. And news flash, even super slow mo reviews will still miss an infinitesimally close call. When I miss calls I have told a coach, “Sorry coach, I didn’t see it” which is the honest truth. I still don’t understand why the back judge or whomever had responsibility for that Saints call missed the PI because he was right there, but that would have been the time for someone in a booth or studio to reverse an obvious error. People screw up.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:08 pm 
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TUPF wrote:
As a high school football official we train with film review; take national exams which are open book which serve to make you dive into the rule and case books; and apprentice first at junior levels, then JV, then graduate to varsity games. Of everything we do the thing that makes me better is doing games. Nothing gets you better than actually doing. I officiated in my 30s for three years, and now since my retirement, another two and I learn more every game. I try never to make the same mistake twice and believe me the situations change game to game.

I know it’s not popular with folks wanting to keep the flow of the game but the only way in my mind to make the NFL officiating as close to perfect as can be is to have real time overseers. In the booth, remote from studios, whatever. Calls are blown, officials screw up. And news flash, even super slow mo reviews will still miss an infinitesimally close call. When I miss calls I have told a coach, “Sorry coach, I didn’t see it” which is the honest truth. I still don’t understand why the back judge or whomever had responsibility for that Saints call missed the PI because he was right there, but that would have been the time for someone in a booth or studio to reverse an obvious error. People screw up.


That needs to happen. Quite frankly, even before this they should have had that for time saving purposes. Some calls are missed that are so obvious that we dont need to stop the game and have the officials from the field do a booth review and take several minutes looking at replays to overturn a call. A guy in the booth should just be in their ear and tell them, they got it wrong. No game stoppage, just get it done real quick.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:39 pm 
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For those who don't think being paid and working full time matters, please name me any job, profession, hobby, whatever where part-timers consistently perform better than fulltime folks doing the same thing. MLB, NBA, even the NHL all have full time refs earning six figure salaries.

But the wealthiest of them all, the NFL, stints on paying for a full time officiating staff. Just curious: how many NFL players have other jobs? How many focus fulltime on their craft year round? Yet they only have the same number of games to work as do the officials.

Basic economics here: You get what you pay for.

Would any of you feel safer if we still relied on citizen's militias or peacetime draftees working for less than minimum wage to defend the USA?


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:45 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
Would any of you feel safer if we still relied on citizen's militias or peacetime draftees working for less than minimum wage to defend the USA?

As windy would say, REDACTED. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:03 pm 
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TUPF wrote:
Baywave1 wrote:
Would any of you feel safer if we still relied on citizen's militias or peacetime draftees working for less than minimum wage to defend the USA?

As windy would say, REDACTED. :lol:



You need to bracket it

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
Would any of you feel safer if we still relied on citizen's militias or peacetime draftees working for less than minimum wage to defend the USA?


Have you read Stsrship Troopers?

Please discuss in detail the Revolutionary War.

Please discuss Agincourt

Teutonborg forest

Dien Bien Phu

WW II

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:49 pm 
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Baywave1 wrote:
Just curious: how many NFL players have other jobs? How many focus fulltime on their craft year round? Yet they only have the same number of games to work as do the officials.


During my high school years, I lived in Ft. Worth. One of the TV stations, WFAA, had as its sports anchor, Verne Lundquist. At the time, Verne was the radio voice of the Cowboys and he became good friends with Tom Landry. Most folks know Verne from his more recent gig with the SEC network. A few years ago he told the following story: During the 60s, being an NFL head coach was a good job, but not the money-printing rock star career it is today. Back then, Tom Landry supplemented his coaching salary by selling life insurance. Lundquist bought a small policy from him and a friendship was made. When Lundquist was telling the story, he said that he still held the policy.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:32 am 
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Baywave1 wrote:
How many focus fulltime on their craft year round? Yet they only have the same number of games to work as do the officials.



Many go to school.

Many do philanthropic, volunteer stuff.

Maintaining the health of their bodies and conditioning is critical to their success and a near full-time job for most in this day and age.

Admittedly, they don't have to because of how much they get paid. But again, explain to me how a referee who is working another job in the 7 off months would be able to improve his skills if he didn't have to work that job? They are going to study film for 8 hrs/day 150 days/yr? Enlighten me, please.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:08 am 
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TUPF wrote:
I know it’s not popular with folks wanting to keep the flow of the game but the only way in my mind to make the NFL officiating as close to perfect as can be is to have real time overseers. In the booth, remote from studios, whatever. Calls are blown, officials screw up. And news flash, even super slow mo reviews will still miss an infinitesimally close call. When I miss calls I have told a coach, “Sorry coach, I didn’t see it” which is the honest truth. I still don’t understand why the back judge or whomever had responsibility for that Saints call missed the PI because he was right there, but that would have been the time for someone in a booth or studio to reverse an obvious error. People screw up.


Very refreshing coming from official. I have coached and often had to run the game clock for basketball games(a bit more stressful than one would imagine). My opinion is that officials are asked to make far too complex observations for the amount of time given to do it. The "We demand better" pushes usually result in complicating the process even more. Then there is the reality that coaches are coaching the players to bend the rules. A lot could be done to simplify what the officials are responsible for in order for them to be more consistent resulting in fair play. Here are some ideas. FBS and NFL only.

1. Move the following penalties away from on field officials and into the booth: illegal man down field, illegal participation, intentional grounding, substitution infractions, delay of game.

2. Time doesn't need to be kept on the field anymore. Have visible play clocks and a buzzer if necessary. Let the booth put the ball into play with something similar to a traffic light clearly visible from the field.

3. Have another set of officials reviewing the play from the booth after every play. They can buzz in 10-12 seconds after every play if there is an infraction. Also allow the on field officials to buzz the booth if they think they may have missed the call or been obstructed somehow.

4. Have a penalty box and have a yellow/red card system for players. Players that consistently hold or interfere with passes should have to sit. Unnecessary roughness should sit.

5. Don't be afraid to slow the game down at the end(last 5-7 minutes) with longer reviews when needed. The margin for error and the bearing it has on the result is too great. {it's when everyone watches the game anyway, it is advertiser friendly} Basketball and baseball games do this with pitching changes and fouls/timeouts.

6. Give the coaches a couple of reviews to review everything; penalties...everything.

7. Penalize coaches or teams who rack up too many penalties. Though the edge will always be sought, the practice of bending the rules needs to curbed.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:20 am 
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Baywave1 wrote:
For those who don't think being paid and working full time matters, please name me any job, profession, hobby, whatever where part-timers consistently perform better than fulltime folks doing the same thing. MLB, NBA, even the NHL all have full time refs earning six figure salaries.

But the wealthiest of them all, the NFL, stints on paying for a full time officiating staff. Just curious: how many NFL players have other jobs? How many focus fulltime on their craft year round? Yet they only have the same number of games to work as do the officials.

Basic economics here: You get what you pay for.

Would any of you feel safer if we still relied on citizen's militias or peacetime draftees working for less than minimum wage to defend the USA?

They are paid something like $200k/yr plus benefits. Nobody makes them work another job and the NFL certainly pays them enough that they don't have to. Lots of NFL players do internships and other things like going back to school, etc. during the offseason. The Chiefs have a player who got an MD last year.


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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:50 am 
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Poseidon wrote:
I have coached and often had to run the game clock for basketball games(a bit more stressful than one would imagine). My opinion is that officials are asked to make far too complex observations for the amount of time given to do it. The "We demand better" pushes usually result in complicating the process even more. Then there is the reality that coaches are coaching the players to bend the rules. A lot could be done to simplify what the officials are responsible for in order for them to be more consistent resulting in fair play. Here are some ideas. FBS and NFL only.

1. Move the following penalties away from on field officials and into the booth: illegal man down field, illegal participation, intentional grounding, substitution infractions, delay of game.

2. Time doesn't need to be kept on the field anymore. Have visible play clocks and a buzzer if necessary. Let the booth put the ball into play with something similar to a traffic light clearly visible from the field.

3. Have another set of officials reviewing the play from the booth after every play. They can buzz in 10-12 seconds after every play if there is an infraction. Also allow the on field officials to buzz the booth if they think they may have missed the call or been obstructed somehow.

4. Have a penalty box and have a yellow/red card system for players. Players that consistently hold or interfere with passes should have to sit. Unnecessary roughness should sit.

5. Don't be afraid to slow the game down at the end(last 5-7 minutes) with longer reviews when needed. The margin for error and the bearing it has on the result is too great. {it's when everyone watches the game anyway, it is advertiser friendly} Basketball and baseball games do this with pitching changes and fouls/timeouts.

6. Give the coaches a couple of reviews to review everything; penalties...everything.

7. Penalize coaches or teams who rack up too many penalties. Though the edge will always be sought, the practice of bending the rules needs to curbed.


Excellent, thoughtful observations and recommendations, Poseidon. If I were Goodell most of your recommendations would be assigned to a working group for consideration and implementation. Some thoughts.

- It’s a hard job officiating, at any level. It’s hard at the peewee level because most coaches seldom and zero parents ever have read a rule book and go by what they see on Sundays. It’s hard at the highest levels because the game moves at lightning speed with the expectation of perfection. If you don’t think so, try it (looking at you, Roller :mrgreen: ). And in my experience, studying, knowing the rules inside and out, working clinics, etc. pales in comparison to in game experience (addressing earlier suggestions in this thread I think I might get a little better if it was a full time job, but there’s several months where not even scrimmages are run so it’s diminishing returns). I routinely score 98+ on the Rules exams and still learn something every game.
- There is a whole other aspect of officiating called mechanics and that is learned partially by study but mostly by doing. Where to be, where to look, when to move, how to back up other officials, how to make calls, how to spot the ball, where to drop flags/beanbags/hats, when to ask for help. The game moves at ever increasing speed at each level. When Graff talks about a bang-bang play its a far cry on the field from the comfort of your couch with multi angle slo mo replays.
- Having said all this, you only officiate if you love it. Otherwise there are far less scrutinized and second guessed part time jobs, or full time, for that matter. An official must be knowledgeable but not arrogant, forthright but not an ass, skilled at peacemaking but not a pushover, and understanding of the stresses coaches and players are under without clouding his judgment. The best games are when we walk off the field together and get no comments or the occasional “good job, officials”. It should never be about us and the occasional official who tries to make it so does not last long.
- I’d agree with most of your suggestions in 1), but how about this one. A foul that by rule should be an infraction but has absolutely no bearing on the play. I know in my association we are not going to call a holding play on the other side of the field away from the flow of the play when it’s obvious that the hold has no bearing. It’s an oft repeated adage that we could call holding on every play. However anything safety related we will call every time even if it’s 50 yards away from the play.
- Official timekeeping off the field could help but only if the timekeepers are also trained, experienced officials. Sometimes the clock starts at the ready, sometimes at the snap, sometimes it’s dependent on the previous foul, sometimes on the time left in the game. The rulebooks have almost a full page on when to start and stop the clock and we still get it wrong at times. And who will backup the timekeeping because electronic clocks often malfunction.
- Personal fouls and unsportsmanlike conduct are often in the eyes of the beholder and tough to call from a booth. You hear things as an official. We call things tighter earlier in the season and earlier in a game to set a tone that says we are not going to put up with mouthy BS or chippy crap. Play football. If you finally throw a flag late in a game after it’s been bubbling since kickoff, you are not managing the game right. This is especially true of hotheaded teenagers. I’ve worked with white hats who during the handshakes will say “I’ll give you a shit/a damn/a hell but if I hear f-bombs or n-words I’m going to flag you; twice and you are gone.” As an umpire 7 yards deep in the defensive backfield and set the ball every play and I am always talking to the players to keep things civil. I have even called an official’s time out, called a OL and DL together to tell them I have seen them chipping at each other and that I’d toss them both if it gets out of hand. Works every time. That is the sort of times an on field official can excel.
- All of the increased oversight would of course cost money which is doable in the NFL or D1 but decidedly less so elsewhere. And it would take awhile to get the oversight crews implemented, who by fiat should be even more experienced than the on field officials. So at least for awhile lesser experienced officials will be on TV. It’s all doable but by no means easy. Then again as we used to say in the Submarine Force, all lessons learned are written in blood.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:46 pm 
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Well, one rumor proved true:

NFL fines Rams’ Nickell Robey-Coleman for hit in NFC Championship vs. Saints: report

https://www.nola.com/saints/2019/01/nfl ... eport.html

The NFL has fined the Los Angles Rams' Nickell Robey-Coleman $26,739 for his controversial helmet-to-helmet hit in the NFC Championship against the New Orleans Saints, ESPN reported Friday (Jan. 25).

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:07 pm 
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GreenieBacker wrote:
Well, one rumor proved true:

NFL fines Rams’ Nickell Robey-Coleman for hit in NFC Championship vs. Saints: report

https://www.nola.com/saints/2019/01/nfl ... eport.html

The NFL has fined the Los Angles Rams' Nickell Robey-Coleman $26,739 for his controversial helmet-to-helmet hit in the NFC Championship against the New Orleans Saints, ESPN reported Friday (Jan. 25).


I heard that the payout for playing in the superbowl is $250 K, which means he is making a boatload of money for an illegal hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:44 pm 
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AO Sig wrote:
GreenieBacker wrote:
Well, one rumor proved true:

NFL fines Rams’ Nickell Robey-Coleman for hit in NFC Championship vs. Saints: report

https://www.nola.com/saints/2019/01/nfl ... eport.html

The NFL has fined the Los Angles Rams' Nickell Robey-Coleman $26,739 for his controversial helmet-to-helmet hit in the NFC Championship against the New Orleans Saints, ESPN reported Friday (Jan. 25).


I heard that the payout for playing in the superbowl is $250 K, which means he is making a boatload of money for an illegal hit.


The 250k was for winning 2 playoff games and the Superbowl. but technically, yes, well into 6 figures. i think the SB itself might be closer to 150k

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 Post subject: Re: Go Saints!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:13 pm 
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https://www.tampabay.com/sports/2019/01 ... ing-a-lie/
Basically my feelings on it

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#itwasallaruse


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