Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

Post by long green »

https://www.cbs46.com/news/hall-of-fame ... ssion=true

I remember watching him break the record in '74. Maybe the first baseball game I ever watched.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Oh no! Hammering' Hank. He broke Babe Ruth's record without the juice a few weeks before I graduated from high school.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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As a Reds fan (and MLB fan) growing up I knew that he held the home run record and I'd seen the footage of the record-breaking homer (with the random fan joining him on the basepaths) but it wasn't until a lot older that I found out he tied the record on Opening Day in my hometown stadium with the voice of baseball of my youth, Marty Brennaman, calling the shot. I was 2.5 years old when he did it. I'd sat in the stands right above where that homer landed for many a game as a kid before I even knew it (there was no marker on the wall where it went over but I believe I heard there was a marker behind the wall in the "backstage" area where it landed).

RIP, Hammerin' Hank.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

Post by gerryb323 »

And he just got the Moderna vaccine 2 weeks ago to show it was safe. Not good optics anyway!

Hank's (auto?)biography was the first baseball book I read and really got me into baseball fandom. Great player and great man.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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He was one of those guys I became a fan of after his retirement (due to not being alive when he retired). I felt bad for him when his record was “broken” during the peak steroid era of baseball.

I will admit though, I have to file him under the “he was still alive?” as for some reason I thought he died a few years ago.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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RIP Hank :( :(
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

Post by AO Sig »

I heard one commentator state that they still feel that he is the true records holder for career home runs because he did it cleanly. I have to agree with that sentiment. RIP
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

Post by krewe of ham and eggs »

The most impressive stat I heard yesterday while they were discussing his career on the radio was that if you took away all of his home runs he would still have over 3000 hits.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Most impressive achievement: all-time leader in RBIs. RIP.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Krewe and roto's notes show what I've always sorta had the impression of... that the home run record overshadowed just what a great hitter he was overall. I think the only people who know that are those old enough to remember him playing. As someone who was 5 when he retired - and I'm turning 50 this year - those numbers are few and getting fewer. All I knew was the home run record, and later I heard some about his activism post-baseball. He doesn't get enough publicity for his hitting overall, based on those two stats (above). Pitchers must have really feared seeing him in the on-deck circle. I'd like to hear commentary from the older guys... Like was his reputation similar to, say, a 90s Junior, a 00s Pujols, a 10s Trout? I'm guessing, with his stats, it must have been.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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PeteRasche wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:43 am Krewe and roto's notes show what I've always sorta had the impression of... that the home run record overshadowed just what a great hitter he was overall. I think the only people who know that are those old enough to remember him playing. As someone who was 5 when he retired - and I'm turning 50 this year - those numbers are few and getting fewer. All I knew was the home run record, and later I heard some about his activism post-baseball. He doesn't get enough publicity for his hitting overall, based on those two stats (above). Pitchers must have really feared seeing him in the on-deck circle. I'd like to hear commentary from the older guys... Like was his reputation similar to, say, a 90s Junior, a 00s Pujols, a 10s Trout? I'm guessing, with his stats, it must have been.
I grew up as a Yankees fan--Yankees were the major leagues to me. The National League was an out-of-mind entity, similar to Arena Football's status. (I guess in the NL cities, it was a big thing, but to a kid in South Louisiana, when all the MLB was up north, it was negligible.) When Mantle and Maris were chasing Babe Ruth's "unbreakable" HR record (though it turned out to be not as "unbreakable" as, say, DiMaggio's 56-game hitting streak), it was BIG news, and we checked the sports pages every day. Then Mantle faded out in late-season, and only Maris went on to surpass Ruth's HR total. But there was a lot of hoopla about Maris getting 5 extra games on the schedule. I recall that discussion as being more heated than the Aaron/Bonds consternation.
In my little clique of baseball fans, we were aware of Hank Aaron as well as Willie Mays, Warren Spahn, Stan Musial, and the other superstars of the NL, but we never took them seriously until later in the '60s, when TV brought them closer to our lives.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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PeteRasche wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:20 am As a Reds fan (and MLB fan) growing up I knew that he held the home run record and I'd seen the footage of the record-breaking homer (with the random fan joining him on the basepaths) but it wasn't until a lot older that I found out he tied the record on Opening Day in my hometown stadium with the voice of baseball of my youth, Marty Brennaman, calling the shot. I was 2.5 years old when he did it. I'd sat in the stands right above where that homer landed for many a game as a kid before I even knew it (there was no marker on the wall where it went over but I believe I heard there was a marker behind the wall in the "backstage" area where it landed).

RIP, Hammerin' Hank.
I find irony/humor in this because it shows the way things work with even slight age differences (5/6 years?). I, too, grew up inside of Riverfront stadium. A single, lower-middle class mom, but in the world of Marge Schott's stunted prices, you could still get a mini-ticket plan if that was your top priority. I must have been at Riverfront 40+ times a year from 1985 through 1992, and then 15+ times a year from 1992 through 2001 or 2002. Tom Browning's perfect game, Pete Rose pushing the umpire, Tony Perez's last game, Rob Dibble throwing a ball into the stands. Game 1 of the 1990 series (though I was sick to the core and don't remember a thing, 12 and refusing to miss the series). It was a Huck Finn kind of childhood, only MLB was my Mississippi River.

I bring this up simply to draw the comparisons to Pete. Yet, because I was just a tad younger, I probably would NOT have known who Hank Aaron was if it was NOT for the Reds. He was just recent enough to not be lionized aka Ruth/Cobb/Walter Johnson, et al, and just old enough to be before my memory. But every rain delay and/or anniversary, they'd show the homerun on the jumbo tron. Marty would talk about it on the radio from time to time. Hank Aaron rose to mythical proportions in my childhood. I remember during one 10+ run blowout game, getting permission to go by myself (age 10 or 11?) to go find the exact seat where the ball hit. I was allowed to go (talk about a different world!) I sat there, in the seat, for an inning before an usher rushed me out (you couldn't sit in the outfield for low attendance games). I was very disappointed a year or two later to realize the seat was actually in the Reds Hall of Fame (or whatever the predecessor was) and I'd been sitting in a replacement seat.

The shocking thing from the video of him breaking the record is how empty the stadium was. Nowadays you'd have record chasers attending every game with the record close.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Obviously the elephant in the room regarding him not being lionized like Ruth/Cobb/Mantle/Maris/et al. is the race consideration. But that's been discussed by many a person and we don't need to rehash that here.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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I'd like to applaud WaveProf's turn of phrase: "It was a Huck Finn kind of childhood, only MLB was my Mississippi River."

Very evocative. :-D
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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PeteRasche wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:10 pm Obviously the elephant in the room regarding him not being lionized like Ruth/Cobb/Mantle/Maris/et al. is the race consideration. But that's been discussed by many a person and we don't need to rehash that here.
If you think Maris was lionized, you were not alive then.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

Post by ml wave »

PeteRasche wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 9:43 am Krewe and roto's notes show what I've always sorta had the impression of... that the home run record overshadowed just what a great hitter he was overall. I think the only people who know that are those old enough to remember him playing. As someone who was 5 when he retired - and I'm turning 50 this year - those numbers are few and getting fewer. All I knew was the home run record, and later I heard some about his activism post-baseball. He doesn't get enough publicity for his hitting overall, based on those two stats (above). Pitchers must have really feared seeing him in the on-deck circle. I'd like to hear commentary from the older guys... Like was his reputation similar to, say, a 90s Junior, a 00s Pujols, a 10s Trout? I'm guessing, with his stats, it must have been.
His career stats are going to line up/surpass Mays/Pujols/Trout, but he "only" won MVP once so I think there's a lower peak than those mentioned but a really long and consistently good career.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Rotorooter wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:52 pm Most impressive achievement: all-time leader in RBIs. RIP.
I think RBIs as a stat were banned somewhere around 15 years ago.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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ml wave wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:17 pm
Rotorooter wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:52 pm Most impressive achievement: all-time leader in RBIs. RIP.
I think RBIs as a stat were banned somewhere around 15 years ago.
I assume you are kidding. It must be banned everywhere but Cooperstown HOF (and every newspaper during the season), where they tout that stat every single day on the display board.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Rotorooter wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:49 am
ml wave wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:17 pm
Rotorooter wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:52 pm Most impressive achievement: all-time leader in RBIs. RIP.
I think RBIs as a stat were banned somewhere around 15 years ago.
I assume you are kidding. It must be banned everywhere but Cooperstown HOF (and every newspaper during the season), where they tout that stat every single day on the display board.
Not kidding. RBI, and their dependence on lineup, situation, opportunity, and teammate success, have been largely discounted as a measure of individual success in recent years. They're still, obviously, a countable stat, but as a measure of individual skill, they are not very reliable.

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/ ... r.amp.html

https://library.fangraphs.com/stats-to- ... ed-in-rbi/

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/new ... dfycywwkva
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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The point is, in 160+ years in the sport, no one has more. Kind of like Cy Young's 511 pitching wins--wins by a pitcher are being discounted as a measurable stat, like complete games. Still impressive that that no one exceeds it in the entire history of baseball, which means what a consistent hitter Aaron was over his career. Kind of like hitting 755 career HRs while not hitting over 47 in any given season. In a dead ball era. Back then, it was the only measurable of productivity in a different game.

As baseball analysis has become more sophisticated, Moneyball items like OBP and OPS have become more valuable than "old" stats like RBIs. Aaron batted 3rd or 4th in the lineup for most of his career, which means he had more opportunities to get RBIs than a guy like Trout, who bats 1st. That's why the stat is being de-emphasized. At .928, but I would bet Aaron's OPS is top 20 all-time. Say what you want, but that RBI stat is still pretty impressive to me.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Sure. It's not that RBI aren't valuable. They just aren't a measure of individual skill (like Wins). You're right that a 3 or 4 hole hitter has more opportunity. It's also more valuable (to a team) to have your best hitter not hit 3rd or 4th. Something that people are only now "discovering".

And of course the correlation of RBI to good hitters is high, given the opportunities good hitters are allowed.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Rotorooter wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:58 am The point is, in 160+ years in the sport, no one has more. Kind of like Cy Young's 511 pitching wins--wins by a pitcher are being discounted as a measurable stat, like complete games. Still impressive that that no one exceeds it in the entire history of baseball, which means what a consistent hitter Aaron was over his career. Kind of like hitting 755 career HRs while not hitting over 47 in any given season. In a dead ball era. Back then, it was the only measurable of productivity in a different game.

As baseball analysis has become more sophisticated, Moneyball items like OBP and OPS have become more valuable than "old" stats like RBIs. Aaron batted 3rd or 4th in the lineup for most of his career, which means he had more opportunities to get RBIs than a guy like Trout, who bats 1st. That's why the stat is being de-emphasized. At .928, but I would bet Aaron's OPS is top 20 all-time. Say what you want, but that RBI stat is still pretty impressive to me.
You really answered your own question there. He's 2nd all time in outs made...what that and the RBI lead tell you is that he played a really long time (and you have to be really good to be able to play that long...I'm not criticizing).

39th career in OPS, will probably move up a couple spots if Miguel Cabrera and Joey Votto keep playing. 20th all time in slugging, but Aaron didn't walk all that much (see 2nd in outs made).
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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CT Wave wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:57 pm If you think Maris was lionized, you were not alive then.
Yeah, I don't know why I included that name, I knew that.

But you're also right, I also was not alive then. 8) :wink:
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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ml wave wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:40 am 39th career in OPS, will probably move up a couple spots if Miguel Cabrera and Joey Votto keep playing. 20th all time in slugging, but Aaron didn't walk all that much (see 2nd in outs made).
Take out his last two seasons in the bigs and see how he fared with OPS. In those two seasons, he was 300 points lower than his average OPS. IN A DEAD BALL ERA.

You and your buddy gerryb crack me up. RBIs aren't a useful stat anymore, so let's diminish its significance. Babe Ruth struck out more times than anyone else, so I guess he wasn't that great.

All-Time leader in MLB RBIs. More than Mays, more than Bonds, more than Ruth, more than Cobb, more than anyone. I'll just leave it at that and let the rest of the board decide if that has any merit.
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Re: Hank Aaron dies, aged 86

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Rotorooter wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:46 pm
ml wave wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:40 am 39th career in OPS, will probably move up a couple spots if Miguel Cabrera and Joey Votto keep playing. 20th all time in slugging, but Aaron didn't walk all that much (see 2nd in outs made).
Take out his last two seasons in the bigs and see how he fared with OPS. In those two seasons, he was 300 points lower than his average OPS. IN A DEAD BALL ERA.

You and your buddy gerryb crack me up. RBIs aren't a useful stat anymore, so let's diminish its significance. Babe Ruth struck out more times than anyone else, so I guess he wasn't that great.

All-Time leader in MLB RBIs. More than Mays, more than Bonds, more than Ruth, more than Cobb, more than anyone. I'll just leave it at that and let the rest of the board decide if that has any merit.
I certainly don't think I nor ml are arguing that Aaron was not a good hitter. Simply that he was not a great hitter because he had lots of RBI. He certainly had lots of RBI because he was a great hitter for a long time!
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