Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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sr
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:
Baywave1 wrote: Perhaps Johnny Cash got it right. At the end, go as spare instrumentally as you can even though you may have lost 80%+ of your musical chops, you still have most/all of your artistic ones. Take advantage of modern acoustical and microphone technology and you get a world class performance like "Hurt." Who would have thought a 71 year old could do a cover like that of a Nine Inch Nails song?
This isn't that different from how Dylan has used a return to the old, old blues on his last 4 or 5 studio albums......which are some of the best albums of his career. He and Cash, in different ways, have taken the same appraoch. The problem with him live is that he plays so many shows a year his voice can't even keep pace with what he's now able to do in studio. It's very telling that he takes 3 months off tour before he even STARTS to record a studio album (and thats why he takes several years to do them). His voice needs rest
Just look where Clapton is now - Blues.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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Beyonce ain't going to win a Nobel Prize (see paragraph three here), but y'all are being overly dismissive of her. She's not in my genre, not someone I particularly enjoy. But her music is incredibly innovative, complex, and pertinent. There's every reason to think she'll be a "seminal" performer when we look back at this era.

Bieber won't be. I think we all know that, even if it makes nice hyperbole to talk about age, race, and musical biases.

But no other musician (anytime soon anyway) is going to win the Nobel. This has been coming for about 15 years because about 40% of the academy sees Dylan as THE poet of the 20th century. The other 60% isn't just against it, they are downright FLOORED this happened, and against it on principle. It really is that big of a deal. Dylan was eventually able to overcome this (barely) because he can ALSO be talked about in terms of pure poetics. I would never do that. I think its a CRIME to take the lyrics away from the music (or vice verse). What's great about Dylan is that he's a great imagist poet, surrealist poet, bluesman, rock and roll man, folk singer, country singer, and jazz man ALL AT THE SAME TIME. He, literally, created a new art form that merged intelligent aspects of other artforms together into something new. Think Picasso. Shakespeare. Cervantes. That's why the 40% thinks so highly of him in the academy. But it's not how he got over the hump to win. He got over the hump because there are just enough traditional, conservative, poet scholars out there who like to put his words on a page and treat them as poetry. The most famous of these, Christopher Ricks, Oxford's #1 poetry scholar, has declared Dylan the best american poet and compared him to Milton. I don't like what Ricks is doing. But that kind of discussion of Dylan is how he was "allowed" to win the Nobel Prize for literature. His songs ARE literature IMO, and there may be other singers that qualify (and should be considered). But he only got in because even some traditional poetry scholars who reject that statement, still like his poetics on the page
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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sr wrote: Just look where Clapton is now - Blues.
In america it ALL goes back to the blues.

Rock. Country. Even Rap.


The Blues join Jazz (and Bourbon lol) as America's only original artform. And good god what a gift to the world.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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No doubt Dylan writes songs not poems. You cannot and should not separate the words from the music.

But we have done that with the ancient Greeks because the musical notation did not survive. Euripides was a composer and choreographer as well as poet. Surviving contemporary commentary all emphasize that the combination of music, dance and poetry made the audience experience exponentially more powerful than simply poetic recitations alone.

Will I think the same of someone reading Bob Dylan in 2056? Unknown. But I do know the music and his performance (in his prime admittedly) combined with the lyrics of "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" make it the greatest and most moving protest song I have ever witnessed.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:
Baywave1 wrote: Perhaps Johnny Cash got it right. At the end, go as spare instrumentally as you can even though you may have lost 80%+ of your musical chops, you still have most/all of your artistic ones. Take advantage of modern acoustical and microphone technology and you get a world class performance like "Hurt." Who would have thought a 71 year old could do a cover like that of a Nine Inch Nails song?
This isn't that different from how Dylan has used a return to the old, old blues on his last 4 or 5 studio albums......which are some of the best albums of his career. He and Cash, in different ways, have taken the same appraoch. The problem with him live is that he plays so many shows a year his voice can't even keep pace with what he's now able to do in studio. It's very telling that he takes 3 months off tour before he even STARTS to record a studio album (and thats why he takes several years to do them). His voice needs rest
Cash toured very, very little if at all at the end of his career. He made an intentional choice to focus on the studio albums, which are almost all masterful covers of songs from other genres. This one (originally a Danzig song; the story goes Glenn Danzig approached Cash and begged him to cover it) is probably my favorite:

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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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GretnaGrn wrote: Cash toured very, very little if at all at the end of his career. He made an intentional choice to focus on the studio albums, which are almost all masterful covers of songs from other genres. This one (originally a Danzig song; the story goes Glenn Danzig approached Cash and begged him to cover it) is probably my favorite:
In this convo I think it is no coincidence that 1) Dylan did those REALLY good old blues cover albums in the 90s (before he started his late period of original work, heavily influenced by the early blues). 2) He's been doing the Sinatra cover albums lately 3) that his tour, and voice, has been better since he started doing the Sinatra covers (saw him at the Saenger a year ago, and the best I'd seen him in a decade) 4) his voice is still less successful because he tours so much, Cash was smart to cut back on that. BUT, cutting back on that wouldn't match Dylan's hobo-hero mantra. So there's that.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:Saw Simon and Garfunkle at Jazz Fast in 2010 too. It is one of my top 5 musical moments, and I'm not even "that" into them. It was the last time they ever performed together. Probably will remain that way. Garfunkle sat out half the set he was supposed to sing on because he couldn't rouse his voice. Simon did a great job covering. Then Garfunkle appeared for Bridge Over Troubled Water and Simon massaged Garfunkle's shoulder as he tried to coax him through the chorus. All that time, all those fights, all that bickering, and in the end it was one man cheering the other one through physically. I wept. It was a great, great day.
To be clear, I'm immensely grateful that I was able to be there for that moment. The "moment" was unbelievable. The crowd willing Art to hit those notes, and going C.R.A.Z.Y. when he was able to do so, was chill-inducing. Or tear-inducing, in your case :wink:
Not actually their last ever performance together, but likely their last full set together. See: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/video ... e-20150922

I'm not "into" Dylan (I respect his work and enjoy what likely-little of it I know), so your description of the situation that led to the Nobel Prize and the issues of separating music from lyric are very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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Gretna, I had never heard that Danzig cover, but when I read your post my first thought was "man, he would have done a killer version of Danzig's 'Mother'!" Think about that one for a second. That woulda worked, yeah??
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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Since we are talking about Dylan and Cash, I won't be cliche and go back to Nashville Skyline (great album btw). Instead I'll point toward something new people may not have heard.

This fall is the 20th anniversary of Gillian Welch's debut album, Revival. In honor of that she is releasing bootlegs, demos, and alternative versions of songs meant for that album. The song she has released in advance as a promo, is a song called Dry Town she and David Rawlings (the other half of the band Gillian Welch) wrote 4 days after getting off a tour opening for Johnny Cash. They attempt to write (and sing) like Cash, which is VERY different from their normal, Dylan and Bluegrass-inspired style. But then in the chorus you totally get Dylanesque lyrics. "I'd give a nickel for a sip or two to wash me down out of this Dry Town"

I don't think its a great song, in fact I'm glad it didn't make in on Revival. But its a really interesting moment of marriage between Cash and Dylan, two singers who had a LOT in common and were good friends in real life.


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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:Since we are talking about Dylan and Cash, I won't be cliche and go back to Nashville Skyline (great album btw). Instead I'll point toward something new people may not have heard.

This fall is the 20th anniversary of Gillian Welch's debut album, Revival. In honor of that she is releasing bootlegs, demos, and alternative versions of songs meant for that album. The song she has released in advance as a promo, is a song called Dry Town she and David Rawlings (the other half of the band Gillian Welch) wrote 4 days after getting off a tour opening for Johnny Cash. They attempts to write (and sing) like Cash, which is VERY different from their normal, Dylan and Bluegrass-inspired style. But then in the chorus you totally get Dylanesque lyrics. "I'd give a nickel for a sip or two to wash me down out of this Dry Town"

I don't think its a great song, in fact I'm glad it didn't make in on Revival. But its a really interesting moment of marriage between Cash and Dylan, two singers who had a LOT in common and were good friends in real life.
Plus if we enjoy that and Tulane ends up in the Birmingham Bowl.... :wink:
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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PeteRasche wrote:Plus if we enjoy that and Tulane ends up in the Birmingham Bowl.... :wink:
Good memory.

Let's just say I have Gillian Welch tickets in Birmingham on the 28th and in Chattanooga the 30th (a short christmas "vacation"). But I haven't yet bought them in Atlanta on the 29th, hoping to be otherwise occupied :coolshades:
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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PeteRasche wrote:Gretna, I had never heard that Danzig cover, but when I read your post my first thought was "man, he would have done a killer version of Danzig's 'Mother'!" Think about that one for a second. That woulda worked, yeah??
It would. Apparently Danzig personally pushed very hard for 13 instead, and I can't say he's completely wrong--it's my favorite Johnny Cash song (and Cash is one of my very favorite musicians). Also worth pointing out the Cash version actually came out first; Danzig really lobbied for him to record a song he himself hadn't put out yet because he felt Cash would knock it out of the park (and he very much did).
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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Context:

Dylan is the 10th* American to win this award

*im not counting two eastern european, post-wwII exiles, Isaac Dinger and Joseph Brodsky, who did not self identify as American but who were living in America at the time of their award, and Derrick Walcott who self identified with his native St Lucia but was living in the US when he won.


They include:

Sinclair Lewis (1930)
Eugene ONeil (1936)
Pearl Buck (1938)
TS Eliot (1948)
William Faulkner (1949)
Ernest Hemingway (1954)
John Steinbeck (1962)
Saul Bellow (1976)
Toni Morrison (1993)
Bob Dylan (2016)
Last edited by WaveProf on Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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I may be too young to appreciate his genius (I'm not sure I've even heard more than a couple of Dylan songs) but he does seem to be the odd one out on that list. O'Neill is the only name on the list I don't recognize from English Lit class.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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Thanks Prof. I REALLY
WaveProf wrote:Since we are talking about Dylan and Cash, I won't be cliche and go back to Nashville Skyline (great album btw). Instead I'll point toward something new people may not have heard.

This fall is the 20th anniversary of Gillian Welch's debut album, Revival. In honor of that she is releasing bootlegs, demos, and alternative versions of songs meant for that album. The song she has released in advance as a promo, is a song called Dry Town she and David Rawlings (the other half of the band Gillian Welch) wrote 4 days after getting off a tour opening for Johnny Cash. They attempt to write (and sing) like Cash, which is VERY different from their normal, Dylan and Bluegrass-inspired style. But then in the chorus you totally get Dylanesque lyrics. "I'd give a nickel for a sip or two to wash me down out of this Dry Town"

I don't think its a great song, in fact I'm glad it didn't make in on Revival. But its a really interesting moment of marriage between Cash and Dylan, two singers who had a LOT in common and were good friends in real life.


Thanks Prof. Really like her !! Eastern Ky. & WVA is fun !!
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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tulaneoutlaw wrote:O'Neill is the only name on the list I don't recognize from English Lit class.
:shock: :lol:
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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tulaneoutlaw wrote:I may be too young to appreciate his genius (I'm not sure I've even heard more than a couple of Dylan songs) but he does seem to be the odd one out on that list. O'Neill is the only name on the list I don't recognize from English Lit class.
That tells me you had a conservative english lit class. He's on more american lit survey syllabi than O'Neill, Morrison, Lewis, Buck, and Bellow, for sure. And has been for a decade or two.

Probably more than Steinbeck too, but in fairness that's because the length of Steinbeck's work often acts against his inclusion.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:
tulaneoutlaw wrote:I may be too young to appreciate his genius (I'm not sure I've even heard more than a couple of Dylan songs) but he does seem to be the odd one out on that list. O'Neill is the only name on the list I don't recognize from English Lit class.
That tells me you had a conservative english lit class. He's on more american lit survey syllabi than O'Neill, Morrison, Lewis, Buck, and Bellow, for sure. And has been for a decade or two.
I was thinking HS English Lit, not at the college level. Which in TN would undoubtedly qualify as conservative. The English I took at Tulane was a survey on Utopia and Dystopia - great class but no Dylan.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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have to admit TUPF, that comment made me stop and shed a little tear :wink:

Baywave, a discussion I heard yesterday driving in to work is that we tuned in to listen to the lyrics of Dylan's songs, more so than the music. Which if you agree, makes his prize in literature understandable.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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tulaneoutlaw wrote:The English I took at Tulane was a survey on Utopia and Dystopia - great class but no Dylan.
Ashlie Sponenberg?

If so, you managed to take my office mate/friend AND my wife the same semester! How did we never cross paths? :mrgreen:

PS: Waveprofa says hi (for the umpteenth time). She always remembers you very fondly.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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GreenieBacker wrote:have to admit TUPF, that comment made me stop and shed a little tear :wink:

Baywave, a discussion I heard yesterday driving in to work is that we tuned in to listen to the lyrics of Dylan's songs, more so than the music. Which if you agree, makes his prize in literature understandable.
GB, I'm glad he won. I just think the music and the singing whether his or in covers is what gives it his true artistic power.

I saw a review of his current tour where the writer was upset that Dylan was changing the melodies of some of his recorded songs (to the worse in the reviewer's eyes) as Dylan performed them. Fair criticism but very Dylanesque to do it.
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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I love Dylan but have to ask myself is his written body of work the equivalent of say Ernest Hemingway?

or if you say he was more like a poet was his body of work equivalent to a Toni Morrison?
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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As someone who started as a Hemingway scholar, in my opinion yes. He blows Hemingway out of the water. And Morrison by an even wider margin. Just my .02

And while admittedly biased it's fair to remember I didn't start out a fan of Dylan. I didn't like him much in college. I came to him as an academic. It was the literary scholar in me that turned me into a fan. I much preferred novels (especially hemingway Faulkner and dos Passos) to music in general, and Dylan in particular. But I came to belueve Dylan was the most important literary figure in America other than Whitman. And I don't like Whitman, so that's some evidence I'm not completely blinded by bias
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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WaveProf wrote:As someone who started as a Hemingway scholar, in my opinion yes. He blows Hemingway out of the water. And Morrison by an even wider margin. Just my .02

And while admittedly biased it's fair to remember I didn't start out a fan of Dylan. I didn't like him much in college. I came to him as an academic. It was the literary scholar in me that turned me into a fan. I much preferred novels (especially hemingway Faulkner and dos Passos) to music in general, and Dylan in particular. But I came to belueve Dylan was the most important literary figure in America other than Whitman. And I don't like Whitman, so that's some evidence I'm not completely blinded by bias
Maybe you're overcorrecting for your bias? :razz:
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Re: Bob Dylan Nobel Prize

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GreenieBacker wrote:I love Dylan but have to ask myself is his written body of work the equivalent of say Ernest Hemingway?

or if you say he was more like a poet was his body of work equivalent to a Toni Morrison?
Bingo!

I've always liked Dylan, but as a musical poet, his work pales before Chuck Berry, John Prine, Jimmy Buffett, Hank Williams, Roger Miller, Dolly Parton, Billy Joel, and many others. And of course, his singing doesn't even get him into the 2nd percentile. His main poetic contribution was the discovery that words ending in "-tion" rhyme with other words ending in "-tion."

If credit is given to seeding the genre, then Jimmie Rogers, Hank Williams, Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly, Carl Perkins, Bill Monroe, Jimmy Buffett, and many others had just as great an impact.

With all due respect to Prof, I think that Jerry Garcia did more for modern music that Bob Dylan, if cult following is the primary measure.

But then, I have never held the Nobel Prizes in high regard.
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