Last man standing:

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OGSB
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Last man standing:

Post by OGSB »

Past performance is no guarantee of future results

Yankeewave
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by Yankeewave »

sounds like a really good guy

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Private Joker
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by Private Joker »

"[McLeod] watched as the [Fritz] staff weeded out the players who were not committed to winning."

I have a tough time understanding what that means. You just kind of want show up for practice so you can get a free degree? You don't mind getting clobbered week after week? Or you don't really know what you want?

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Wandering Quaker
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by Wandering Quaker »

Door no. 3. Lots of guys don't know what they want at 17 or 18, except lots of girls.

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waverider
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Re: Last man standing:

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Private Joker wrote:"[McLeod] watched as the [Fritz] staff weeded out the players who were not committed to winning."

I have a tough time understanding what that means. You just kind of want show up for practice so you can get a free degree? You don't mind getting clobbered week after week? Or you don't really know what you want?
I take it as: some guys were good enough in HS that they just had to show up whereas Fritz expects every player to show up, work hard and put additional work to get better.
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PeteRasche
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Re: Last man standing:

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Private Joker wrote:"[McLeod] watched as the [Fritz] staff weeded out the players who were not committed to winning."

I have a tough time understanding what that means. You just kind of want show up for practice so you can get a free degree? You don't mind getting clobbered week after week? Or you don't really know what you want?
You wouldn't believe the mindset of my peers who played for Davis and Teevens. They didn't care that they getting whipped in every game, they were getting a free ride and partying all the time. Guys made a sport of seeing how they could sneak in booze and get hammered in the Hyatt the night before the game (when the whole point of being there was so you were away from that and could rest and focus) because they "knew they were gonna lose, so who cares, let's have fun". The postgame routine was to get to the Rendon Inn as quickly as possible. I've heard things got a little better in the mid 90s before Bowden arrived so there wasn't as much purging as there would have been, but the simple fact Tommy eliminated that toxicity so quickly is amazing.

I can imagine Fritz was up against something similar, though from what some insiders have told me, it was less a lack of caring and more that there were too many of CJ's guys who were too coddled or were promised things without having to work for them.

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Re: Last man standing:

Post by Bham Wave »

You wouldn't believe the mindset of my peers who played for Davis and Teevens. They didn't care that they getting whipped in every game, they were getting a free ride and partying all the time. Guys made a sport of seeing how they could sneak in booze and get hammered in the Hyatt the night before the game (when the whole point of being there was so you were away from that and could rest and focus) because they "knew they were gonna lose, so who cares, let's have fun". The postgame routine was to get to the Rendon Inn as quickly as possible. I've heard things got a little better in the mid 90s before Bowden arrived so there wasn't as much purging as there would have been, but the simple fact Tommy eliminated that toxicity so quickly is amazing.

I can imagine Fritz was up against something similar, though from what some insiders have told me, it was less a lack of caring and more that there were too many of CJ's guys who were too coddled or were promised things without having to work for them.[/quote]


I agree Pete. The culture in the program means a lot. I remember those days in the early 90’s as well. I knew some of the football players who really cared but a lot were there for the free education and partying. They could care less whether they won or lost.

It is my understanding that the culture under CJ was terrible. He created division. Early on it was Toledo guys vs his guys. Later on it was local guys vs guys from out of state. It is my understanding that the problems even made it into the parent ranks. Things were so bad that some parents stopped sitting in the parent section because they did not want to be around other parents.

I think things have changed with Fritz. Just watching the team on the sideline during games they appear to be more unified than they were under the prior staff. Fritz has former players coming back around the program which I think is a big deal. Hopefully this culture change will lead to more wins this year!!
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GreenieBacker
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Re: Last man standing:

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none of us will probably know just how bad it was although plenty of signs were there. Clearly WF had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he took over. I guess my question is why that poor, self-destructive culture was allowed to fester by the AD who must have known what was going on.
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Re: Last man standing:

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Probably because the last AD wasn’t very good and didn’t want to admit yet again that he made the wrong hire.
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long green
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Re: Last man standin

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GreenieBacker wrote:none of us will probably know just how bad it was although plenty of signs were there. Clearly WF had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he took over. I guess my question is why that poor, self-destructive culture was allowed to fester by the AD who must have known what was going on.
I figured that you’d join in once you saw someone firing CJ again on here.

There’s no question Fritz had to change things 180 degrees but I don’t see what was so exceptional about the bad culture under CJ that wasn’t also messed up under Toledo, Teevens, Scelfo, and Davis. They were bad in different ways. Toledo did some positive things behind the scenes but he ran out of ideas and energy during his 3rd year. His last year was a disaster and Johnson at least came in breathing fire. Teevens inherited the worst talent base we’ll ever see and had no idea how to coach at the major college level. But he turned the recruiting around. He was never going to win but his players knew they could win if they got pointed in the right direction. Scelfo had two things happen to his program that no one else had to deal with but he was such a glum fatalist that he couldn’t fight for any breathing room. Greg Davis was a doormat with no faith in himself or Tulane. Mack Brown had to force him to take the job. If we had found a Fritz for the job at that point there’s no telling what we’d be now (not that we couldn’t have screwed that up).

Bham’s first post described the acceptance of a losing culture that has so often saturated this program. His descriptions of the fatalism and gallows humor brought back some terrible memories.
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Johnny Mac
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Re: Last man standing:

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LG, I'm curious what "positive" things Toledo did behind the scenes other than planting flowers with Dickson to save his job one year. I know that publicly, he did everything he could to deflect blame... whining about a "bare cupboard" from Scelfo, throwing his team under the bus REPEATEDLY, making up some crap that playing at Gormley cost us a game, telling reserves that they will "never play at Tulane so you should consider your options"... I will stop there because I don't want to keep triggering your PTSD from previous football regimes.

But wow, what a thought, though... if we had brought in a real coach instead of a perennial coordinator to replace Mack in 89... where could we have gone with all the talent Brown had stockpiled in his brief tenure?
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Re: Last man standing:

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Playing football is only part of these players life. If it becomes apparent that the coach not cutting it, coaches aren't giving them shots at playing, or their hurt etc. it becomes pragmatic to find purpose elsewhere. That's not to say they do a bad job with football, they just chose to put their heart in something else; women, school, social life(relationships). The best coaches keep their players hearts in the program and challenge them on the practice field and weight room. Always remember you have 80-90 players for 22 spots and all of them were big deals in high school who have little to no experience not acting out their purpose(being on the field gameday). They don't know what to feel when they find themselves down in the dept chart. It can easily appear to them that they don't matter.
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long green
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by long green »

The two positives:

First, under him we first had a real summer program.
Second, he got local recruiting going eventually. He brought in Rollins who laid groundwork to help Johnson get off to a fast start. It was something he said he would do when he got here.
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GreenieBacker
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by GreenieBacker »

wasn't he also the first guy to really emphasize the camps where you can see potential recruits in person, etc.
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long green
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Re: Last man standing:

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GreenieBacker wrote:wasn't he also the first guy to really emphasize the camps where you can see potential recruits in person, etc.
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Johnny Mac
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Re: Last man standing:

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long green wrote:
GreenieBacker wrote:wasn't he also the first guy to really emphasize the camps where you can see potential recruits in person, etc.
Three
thanks for the list.. I was actually aware of those things but allowed all the negatives to drown them out
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long green
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Re: Last man standing:

Post by long green »

Johnny Mac wrote:
long green wrote:
GreenieBacker wrote:wasn't he also the first guy to really emphasize the camps where you can see potential recruits in person, etc.
Three
thanks for the list.. I was actually aware of those things but allowed all the negatives to drown them out
So did I for the most part.
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Re: Last man standing:

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PeteRasche wrote:
Private Joker wrote:"[McLeod] watched as the [Fritz] staff weeded out the players who were not committed to winning."

I have a tough time understanding what that means. You just kind of want show up for practice so you can get a free degree? You don't mind getting clobbered week after week? Or you don't really know what you want?
You wouldn't believe the mindset of my peers who played for Davis and Teevens. They didn't care that they getting whipped in every game, they were getting a free ride and partying all the time. Guys made a sport of seeing how they could sneak in booze and get hammered in the Hyatt the night before the game (when the whole point of being there was so you were away from that and could rest and focus) because they "knew they were gonna lose, so who cares, let's have fun". The postgame routine was to get to the Rendon Inn as quickly as possible. I've heard things got a little better in the mid 90s before Bowden arrived so there wasn't as much purging as there would have been, but the simple fact Tommy eliminated that toxicity so quickly is amazing.

I can imagine Fritz was up against something similar, though from what some insiders have told me, it was less a lack of caring and more that there were too many of CJ's guys who were too coddled or were promised things without having to work for them.
Well that explains a lot. I sure wish I knew about that before I shelled out money every year for season tickets. Fans never really know what goes on behind the scenes.

I suspect the same thing happened the night before that Homecoming game at Gormley unde Toledo.
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Private Joker
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Re: Last man standing:

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Man in Green wrote:I suspect the same thing happened the night before that Homecoming game at Gormley under Toledo.
Are you referencing that Army game? That was nauseating. I was so expecting to play well. Flew into town for it even. I should have gone and played on that train adjacent to the stadium, like my very small children wisely did.

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