No one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:59 amNo one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
We deserve so much better
- tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Mods just lock this. Nobody is changing their opinion clearly and we have started with the name calling again.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
I agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 amDifferent times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 amMaurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html
Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
I misspoke.. the XFL does NOT have a three year waiting period. So young players will have an opportunity to choose college or pro (as long as the league exists).Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:43 pmI agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 amDifferent times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 amMaurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html
Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
We agree about Clarett. As to the suit different times and they can take a different tact to try again.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:43 pmI agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 amDifferent times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 amMaurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html
Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
We deserve so much better
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Problem is when they shut down I believe they said they were closing for good.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:47 pmI misspoke.. the XFL does NOT have a three year waiting period. So young players will have an opportunity to choose college or pro (as long as the league exists).Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:43 pmI agree. No one is forcing anyone to go to college and play football. I was just pointing out that suing the NFL has been tried and failed. Maurice Clarett, who filed the lawsuit, could've (and should've) gone to Canada and demonstrated to the NFL that they were making a mistake. Instead he showed the NFL how immature he was and ended up in prison. He is out now and doing great things, but it was a tragic waste of talent. Oddly enough, the XFL has the same three year waiting period, which seems to me like a missed opportunity.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:07 amDifferent times. They can take a different tact. Bottom line is no one is forcing them to play college ball. And the fact still is that they are handsomely paid.Johnny4 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:58 amMaurice Clarrett won a lawsuit against the NFL, but it was overturned by the second circuit court of appeals (New York).
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-2nd-circuit/1111241.html
Basically, no evidence that the NFL and NFLPA have conspired to drive competitors out of the market place. Thus the collective bargaining agreement, which requires players to be three years removed from high school, cannot be invalidated by the courts.
We deserve so much better
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Yes, they choose their majors -- in most instances the path of least resistance for time/effort spent on the classroom and in many cases in order to avoid demanding majors that would have them flunk out. The end result is little skills that are saleable for any kind of profession.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:12 amNo one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:59 amNo one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Says you. They are new enough that we don't have results on them to know what they lead to. But good to know you want to go back to the days where we couldn't get athletes in that could be competitive. Boy those were the days.
We deserve so much better
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Not Tulane specifically, but there's plenty of stories out there about CFB players who were pushed by their coaches into easier/more convenient majors so it wouldn't interfere with football.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:59 pmYes, they choose their majors -- in most instances the path of least resistance for time/effort spent on the classroom and in many cases in order to avoid demanding majors that would have them flunk out. The end result is little skills that are saleable for any kind of profession.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:12 amNo one is being taken advantage of. They don't have to play if they don't like the current compensation. They choose their majors.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:59 amNo one is being taken advantage of?.... Let's go back to a (partial) baseline here: The majority of our current -- and probably prospective -- players are taking crap majors that provide them no real knowledge and skills for long-term, professional occupations. Some unknown, but significant, percentage suffer uncorrected injuries, some of which only appear years later and can be debilitating to a greater or lesser extent. Tulane tried to resist this "student-athlete" ethos for a long, long time, but finally capitulated to the Health and Wellness, Kinesiology, etc., crap majors just to get the stronger FB players to come to Tulane. Almost none get to play in the NFL. and even then, the usual outcome is a short career, often spent mostly on the bench, and the opportunity to garner even more injuries.
And later? Track a bunch of these players who were recruited not to get an academic or professional education, but simply to play FB, after they are out of college for 10 or 20 or 30 years. Selling carpeting and outboard motors, working in their uncle's restaurant, driving 18-wheelers, etc. And there are a lot sadder stories. Is this what going to Tulane produces? Remember when we had prospective MDs going to Tulane (Roch Hontas); and biologists; and physicists. Yep, those days are gone. But what we have now is worse -- its is exploitative and there is no way to rationalize it as an ethical stance for Tulane. And don't give me the lame argument that many of these kids would either go to a worse school (to learn what? to benefit how?) or would have no college at all.
And, BTW, I can practice advocacy on the "other side" of this argument just as well. I did that for decades in Washington, DC.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
If I start compiling a list of things you don't understand, I'll be sure to add "use of sarcasm" right after "basic understanding of economics."
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
We can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
You clearly don't understand either so I'll consider the source.ml wave wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:38 pmIf I start compiling a list of things you don't understand, I'll be sure to add "use of sarcasm" right after "basic understanding of economics."
We deserve so much better
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
In the 60's we had a PE degree. Try again. They aren't being utilized for revenue production. Tulane loses a lot of money every year on athletics. They are blessed that the university cares enough to support them through school.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:23 pmWe can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
We deserve so much better
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
You are right. Your affirmative view of the situation has made the scales fall from my eyes I retract all my previous arguments. Thank you.wavedom wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:05 pmIn the 60's we had a PE degree. Try again. They aren't being utilized for revenue production. Tulane loses a lot of money every year on athletics. They are blessed that the university cares enough to support them through school.DCGreenie wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:23 pmWe can analogize to many other schools that have lowered their standards for decades to attract FB players. We have results on their futures, although far too many of them are not pursued through the later years of their lives to show the consequence of matriculation without really getting any occupational life skills. You are aware of this, no doubt?
The good old days? We had real student-athletes in the 1960s. I understand that that is almost gone and won't come back. I also am discouraged by the athletes of color we have now who are being utilized for revenue production. Want to argue against that view?
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
You're quite welcome.
We deserve so much better
- Luvs da Wave
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
- PeteRasche
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Took you until now to figure that out?Luvs da Wave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Well, this involves adults in positions of (outsized) power often taking advantage of kids...not exactly an even playing field.Luvs da Wave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
The system has been around for over 100 years no one is being taken advantage of. Everyone knows what they are getting into .
We deserve so much better
- tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
I think Mark Emmert inhabits this board.
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
I have kids. They are aged 1, 3, and 5. They cant take student loans or join the military or co to college.ml wave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 1:48 pmWell, this involves adults in positions of (outsized) power often taking advantage of kids...not exactly an even playing field.Luvs da Wave wrote: ↑Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:06 am I guess we have gone past the point in this country where we hold individuals responsible for their personal decisions. It is always someone else’s fault.
18-22 year olds are not kids. The "kids" labeling is just dishonest(not attacking you ML, you are far from the only person to ever use that term). I have probably said it on ocasion as well.
If we really want to be paternalistic(in caring way) then arguing for anyone people see as "kids" to get windfalls of thousands of dollars of cash is probably no the best thing.
Quote:The Good - TULANE
The Bad - LSU
THe Ugly - USM
Honorable mention - Navy
The Bad - LSU
THe Ugly - USM
Honorable mention - Navy
- tulaneoutlaw
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Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
Well for one thing, the young men playing in college are pretty much all approached by college coaches while they are still kids. You start getting recruited at 16 and 17 in most places. So while I get your point on them being legally adults, that's not really where the conversation starts.
More importantly, why does the NCAA not treat them as adults? Why do they have all these rules in place to "protect" the players when really it costs them money that in a less regulated market would be there for them to earn? The NCAA's paternalistic rules are what leads to them being branded "kids".
More importantly, why does the NCAA not treat them as adults? Why do they have all these rules in place to "protect" the players when really it costs them money that in a less regulated market would be there for them to earn? The NCAA's paternalistic rules are what leads to them being branded "kids".
Re: Worried About Evolution of College Football.....
The your right the NCAA does treat them like kids, unless it has to do wtih title ix then they are not kids again. They are all over the place. A lot of this comes from universities as a while that have catereed to overprotective and even helicopter parents. Now as opposed to 30 years ago and before when parents go with the kids to see schools the parents arent asking about acedemics they are asking about how security, how is the university going to provide food, comfort etc to their children. Universities are no longer a place to test boundaries and experience indedendance and the hard sknocks that come with it. What does this have to do with football? The paternalism comes from multiple places, but it doesnt make it right nor does it make them kids just becauee they are treated as such.tulaneoutlaw wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:47 pm Well for one thing, the young men playing in college are pretty much all approached by college coaches while they are still kids. You start getting recruited at 16 and 17 in most places. So while I get your point on them being legally adults, that's not really where the conversation starts.
More importantly, why does the NCAA not treat them as adults? Why do they have all these rules in place to "protect" the players when really it costs them money that in a less regulated market would be there for them to earn? The NCAA's paternalistic rules are what leads to them being branded "kids".
Quote:The Good - TULANE
The Bad - LSU
THe Ugly - USM
Honorable mention - Navy
The Bad - LSU
THe Ugly - USM
Honorable mention - Navy